[theme-reviewers] Tinymce button that only adds css codes.. still plugin territory?

Sun Mar 3 17:13:58 UTC 2013

What is problem now?

> What is the purpose of that button?

That can be anything. Remember websites purpose can be anything. *WordPress* is
web software you can use to create a beautiful website or blog.

You asked me purpose of a button and i said it can be anything.. And you
didnt like my answer so you closed my theme directly:
http://themes.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11449#comment:4

Wow.. I hope there is another persons that understands difference between
elements and semantics and you cant be semantic always.
I suggest you to read this article too:
http://learn.shayhowe.com/html-css/elements-semantics

> Divisions, or divs, and spans are HTML elements that act as a container
> for different content. As a generic container they do not come with any
> overarching meaning or semantic value. Paragraphs are semantic in that when
> content is wrapped within a p element it is known as a paragraph. Divs and
> spans do not hold such meaning and are simply containers. Both divs and
> spans, however, are extremely valuable when building a website in that they
> give you the ability to apply targeted CSS styles.

You still trying to reach purpose of a button link. Oh and even your
website is not fully semantic. You are using div with "alignright" class to
make a picture in right of your content eh? Whats purpose of this
div.alignright? its not semantic

On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net> wrote:

> I'm sorry, but if you're not going to make a good-faith effort to explain
> what you're trying to accomplish, I can't help you.
>
> Those TinyMCE buttons are Plugin territory.
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:50 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I am not sure what is the thing you trying to reach. But can you please
>> just read this:
>> http://html5doctor.com/you-can-still-use-div/
>> I dont want to copy paste all site here.
>>
>> The div element has no special meaning at all. It represents its
>> children. It can be used with the class, lang, and title attributes to mark
>> up semantics common to a group of consecutive elements.
>> W3C Specification<http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-div-element>
>>
>> What is the purpose of that button?
>>
>> That can be anything. Remember websites purpose can be anything. *
>> WordPress* is web software you can use to create a beautiful website or
>> blog.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 6:43 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net>wrote:
>>
>>> > I want 2 button type link in my post content.
>>>
>>> Now we're getting somewhere, and what I suspected that we were driving
>>> at. The semantic purpose of the container, then, is *to define a button*.
>>>
>>> What is the purpose of that button?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's the Theme's responsibility to ensure readability and usability.
>>>>
>>>> I agree. Thats why i believe tinymce button that adds span/div wrappers
>>>> with CSS classes's place is themes.. not plugins. Plugins cant predict
>>>> which styles loaded but themes know which styles loaded.
>>>>
>>>> In that case, that styling of post content should be accounted for via
>>>>> style.css.
>>>>
>>>> I agree. Its why we have css classes. Css classes are defined styling
>>>> that you know what will do *if you use it. *In my theme, all styling
>>>> is doing with classes.
>>>>
>>>> There's no reason for users to wrap post content with DIVs/SPANs just
>>>>> to "improve readability and usability".
>>>>
>>>>  I dont agree. Themes, plugins or even wordpress cant predict user
>>>> content's job fully. Lets say;
>>>> I want 2 button type link in my post content. Those 2 must be different
>>>> looking (color,size etc) because of usability. How can you predict which
>>>> links in post content should those buttons? Of course you will use
>>>>  span/div wrappers with CSS classes.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In that case, that styling of post content should be accounted for via
>>>>> style.css. There's no reason for users to wrap post content with DIVs/SPANs
>>>>> just to "improve readability and usability". It's the Theme's
>>>>> responsibility to ensure readability and usability.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> What is the *purpose* of the span/div wrappers with CSS classes?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Styling content with results of improving readability and usability
>>>>>> of web site?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 5:21 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > I believe tinymce button thats just adding span,div with classes
>>>>>>> can be theme territory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's finish that discussion here, before moving to the ticket.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is the *purpose* of the span/div wrappers with CSS classes?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <
>>>>>>> unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Released 1.1.1 version:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://themes.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11449
>>>>>>>> Removed plugin territory features except tinymce button. I believe
>>>>>>>> tinymce button thats just adding span,div with classes can be theme
>>>>>>>> territory. Thanks everyone for your time
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:45 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If there is no semantic value, then why would the user want to
>>>>>>>>> wrap content in <span class="foo bar"></span>? There is obviously some
>>>>>>>>> *use* or *purpose* for the user explicitly wrapping content in a container
>>>>>>>>> with defined CSS selectors. The *nature* of that intended purpose helps to
>>>>>>>>> clarify whether it is Theme territory or Plugin territory.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sometimes questions don't have a single, black-and-white answer,
>>>>>>>>> but instead depend on context. (For example: post custom meta boxes are not
>>>>>>>>> inherently Theme or Plugin territory; that determination depends on the
>>>>>>>>> intended use of the defined custom post meta data handled by those meta
>>>>>>>>> boxes.) So, by asking, "what is the semantic meaning of the code added by
>>>>>>>>> the TinyMCE buttons?" I'm trying to drive to the intended purpose, to
>>>>>>>>> ensure that we're all discussing the question in the correct context.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I mentioned shortcodes among a list of other things in the Theme
>>>>>>>>> that are Plugin territory. Yes, it is a separate issue from the question of
>>>>>>>>> TinyMCE buttons, but in your OP, you said, "there are no shortcodes, only
>>>>>>>>> added TinyMCE buttons". I was merely pointing out that "there are no
>>>>>>>>> shortcodes" is untrue, because the Theme does define shortcodes (along with
>>>>>>>>> many other things that are Plugin territory).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <
>>>>>>>>> unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Let's back up a bit: why would <span class="foo bar"></span> be
>>>>>>>>>>> added to post content to begin with? What is the semantic meaning of such a
>>>>>>>>>>> container?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Seriously?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Span_and_div
>>>>>>>>>> In HTML <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML>, the *span* and *div*
>>>>>>>>>>  elements <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_element> are used
>>>>>>>>>> for generic organizational or stylistic applications, typically when extant
>>>>>>>>>> meaningful elements have exhausted their purpose.
>>>>>>>>>> *span* and *div* is not semantic.. its for design. Colors,
>>>>>>>>>> boxes, icons are not semantic.. Those are design that shows content better.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are we talking about core-defined shortcodes or not? If they're
>>>>>>>>>>> defined in core, why do they need to be defined in the Theme?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  Original question:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>> My theme:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11437
>>>>>>>>>>> Theme is adding custom tinymce button that adds css code for
>>>>>>>>>>> design elements. There is no shortcode or something.. just css code.
>>>>>>>>>>> Its allowed in themes right?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is a tinymce button added with theme. That button adds css
>>>>>>>>>> code when you click it. ITs not adding shortcode and esspecially i am
>>>>>>>>>> saying its not adding any shortcode. I NEVER said theme does not support
>>>>>>>>>> any shortcode. Theme is supporting 3 shortcode thats wordpress default
>>>>>>>>>> shortcodes: audio, video, gallery. Why did you link shortcodes file and
>>>>>>>>>> said "aha there is shortcode"? What is purpose here?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Chip Bennett <
>>>>>>>>>> chip at chipbennett.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Let's back up a bit: why would <span class="foo bar"></span> be
>>>>>>>>>>> added to post content to begin with? What is the semantic meaning of such a
>>>>>>>>>>> container?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Daniel Tara <
>>>>>>>>>>> contact at onedesigns.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Speaking a bit more generally I believe there always be this
>>>>>>>>>>>> conflict between content generation and content presentation. Content
>>>>>>>>>>>> generation is plugin territory but if plugins also add their own styling
>>>>>>>>>>>> what are the chances that styling fits a random theme. I say not styled
>>>>>>>>>>>> content is better than ugly styled content. I think we should allow more
>>>>>>>>>>>> middle ground here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 3, 2013, at 4:10 PM, Ünsal Korkmaz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for review but i mean tinymce does not adding
>>>>>>>>>>>> shortcode, it adds css code.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/shortcodes.php
>>>>>>>>>>>> Those shortcodes are wordpress's default shortcodes. audio,
>>>>>>>>>>>> gallery, video.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Chip Bennett <
>>>>>>>>>>>> chip at chipbennett.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmm, actually, there *are* shortcodes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/shortcodes.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And this is definitely Plugin territory:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/remove-comments-absolute.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And a good deal of this is Plugin territory:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/fix.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And this is also probably Plugin territory (though a bit of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> gray area):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/custom-sharing-buttons.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/custom-facebook-comments.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But, for the TinyMCE buttons: my initial reaction would be to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> say that they also are probably Plugin territory. What do the buttons do?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do they add to the post content? Wrap selected content in <span
>>>>>>>>>>>>> class="foo bar"></span> tags? Sure, that degrades more gracefully than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> un-parsed shortcodes, but it would still result in a bunch of unused markup
>>>>>>>>>>>>> scattered throughout the user's posts after switching Themes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Thus, I would say that the TinyMCE buttons are also Plugin
>>>>>>>>>>>>> territory*. I would recommend defining the *styles* for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CSS classes added via the TinyMCE buttons, but make the underlying TinyMCE
>>>>>>>>>>>>> button functionality itself a Plugin.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chip
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My theme:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11437
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theme is adding custom tinymce button that adds css code for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design elements. There is no shortcode or something.. just css code.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its allowed in themes right?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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