[theme-reviewers] Tinymce button that only adds css codes.. still plugin territory?

Sun Mar 3 17:22:21 UTC 2013

We are not here to debate HTML theory. We are here to review Themes.

One of the primary principles in the Theme Review Guidelines is the
distinction between creation/definition of user content, and presentation
of user content. When I asked about the semantic purpose of the code being
added by your Theme's TinyMCE buttons, I was not delving into HTML markup
theory; rather, I was driving at this user content creation-vs-presentation
distinction. Adding a button to the post content is creation/definition,
not presentation, of user content.

If the user wants links in post content to be a button, the user will want
that button to exist regardless of what Theme is active; thus, the user
will add that button functionality using a Plugin.

On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Ünsal Korkmaz <unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com>wrote:

> What is problem now?
>
>> What is the purpose of that button?
>
> That can be anything. Remember websites purpose can be anything. *
> WordPress* is web software you can use to create a beautiful website or
> blog.
>
> You asked me purpose of a button and i said it can be anything.. And you
> didnt like my answer so you closed my theme directly:
> http://themes.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11449#comment:4
>
> Wow.. I hope there is another persons that understands difference between
> elements and semantics and you cant be semantic always.
> I suggest you to read this article too:
> http://learn.shayhowe.com/html-css/elements-semantics
>
>> Divisions, or divs, and spans are HTML elements that act as a container
>> for different content. As a generic container they do not come with any
>> overarching meaning or semantic value. Paragraphs are semantic in that when
>> content is wrapped within a p element it is known as a paragraph. Divs and
>> spans do not hold such meaning and are simply containers. Both divs and
>> spans, however, are extremely valuable when building a website in that they
>> give you the ability to apply targeted CSS styles.
>
>
> You still trying to reach purpose of a button link. Oh and even your
> website is not fully semantic. You are using div with "alignright" class to
> make a picture in right of your content eh? Whats purpose of this
> div.alignright? its not semantic
>
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net> wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry, but if you're not going to make a good-faith effort to explain
>> what you're trying to accomplish, I can't help you.
>>
>> Those TinyMCE buttons are Plugin territory.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:50 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> I am not sure what is the thing you trying to reach. But can you please
>>> just read this:
>>> http://html5doctor.com/you-can-still-use-div/
>>> I dont want to copy paste all site here.
>>>
>>> The div element has no special meaning at all. It represents its
>>> children. It can be used with the class, lang, and title attributes to mark
>>> up semantics common to a group of consecutive elements.
>>> W3C Specification<http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-div-element>
>>>
>>> What is the purpose of that button?
>>>
>>> That can be anything. Remember websites purpose can be anything. *
>>> WordPress* is web software you can use to create a beautiful website or
>>> blog.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 6:43 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>> > I want 2 button type link in my post content.
>>>>
>>>> Now we're getting somewhere, and what I suspected that we were driving
>>>> at. The semantic purpose of the container, then, is *to define a button*.
>>>>
>>>> What is the purpose of that button?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It's the Theme's responsibility to ensure readability and usability.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree. Thats why i believe tinymce button that adds span/div
>>>>> wrappers with CSS classes's place is themes.. not plugins. Plugins cant
>>>>> predict which styles loaded but themes know which styles loaded.
>>>>>
>>>>> In that case, that styling of post content should be accounted for via
>>>>>> style.css.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree. Its why we have css classes. Css classes are defined styling
>>>>> that you know what will do *if you use it. *In my theme, all styling
>>>>> is doing with classes.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no reason for users to wrap post content with DIVs/SPANs just
>>>>>> to "improve readability and usability".
>>>>>
>>>>>  I dont agree. Themes, plugins or even wordpress cant predict user
>>>>> content's job fully. Lets say;
>>>>> I want 2 button type link in my post content. Those 2 must be
>>>>> different looking (color,size etc) because of usability. How can you
>>>>> predict which links in post content should those buttons? Of course you
>>>>> will use  span/div wrappers with CSS classes.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In that case, that styling of post content should be accounted for
>>>>>> via style.css. There's no reason for users to wrap post content with
>>>>>> DIVs/SPANs just to "improve readability and usability". It's the Theme's
>>>>>> responsibility to ensure readability and usability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <
>>>>>> unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is the *purpose* of the span/div wrappers with CSS classes?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Styling content with results of improving readability and usability
>>>>>>> of web site?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 5:21 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > I believe tinymce button thats just adding span,div with classes
>>>>>>>> can be theme territory.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let's finish that discussion here, before moving to the ticket.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What is the *purpose* of the span/div wrappers with CSS classes?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <
>>>>>>>> unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Released 1.1.1 version:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://themes.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11449
>>>>>>>>> Removed plugin territory features except tinymce button. I believe
>>>>>>>>> tinymce button thats just adding span,div with classes can be theme
>>>>>>>>> territory. Thanks everyone for your time
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:45 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If there is no semantic value, then why would the user want to
>>>>>>>>>> wrap content in <span class="foo bar"></span>? There is obviously some
>>>>>>>>>> *use* or *purpose* for the user explicitly wrapping content in a container
>>>>>>>>>> with defined CSS selectors. The *nature* of that intended purpose helps to
>>>>>>>>>> clarify whether it is Theme territory or Plugin territory.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes questions don't have a single, black-and-white answer,
>>>>>>>>>> but instead depend on context. (For example: post custom meta boxes are not
>>>>>>>>>> inherently Theme or Plugin territory; that determination depends on the
>>>>>>>>>> intended use of the defined custom post meta data handled by those meta
>>>>>>>>>> boxes.) So, by asking, "what is the semantic meaning of the code added by
>>>>>>>>>> the TinyMCE buttons?" I'm trying to drive to the intended purpose, to
>>>>>>>>>> ensure that we're all discussing the question in the correct context.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I mentioned shortcodes among a list of other things in the Theme
>>>>>>>>>> that are Plugin territory. Yes, it is a separate issue from the question of
>>>>>>>>>> TinyMCE buttons, but in your OP, you said, "there are no shortcodes, only
>>>>>>>>>> added TinyMCE buttons". I was merely pointing out that "there are no
>>>>>>>>>> shortcodes" is untrue, because the Theme does define shortcodes (along with
>>>>>>>>>> many other things that are Plugin territory).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <
>>>>>>>>>> unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Let's back up a bit: why would <span class="foo bar"></span> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> added to post content to begin with? What is the semantic meaning of such a
>>>>>>>>>>>> container?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Seriously?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Span_and_div
>>>>>>>>>>> In HTML <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML>, the *span* and *div
>>>>>>>>>>> * elements <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_element> are used
>>>>>>>>>>> for generic organizational or stylistic applications, typically when extant
>>>>>>>>>>> meaningful elements have exhausted their purpose.
>>>>>>>>>>> *span* and *div* is not semantic.. its for design. Colors,
>>>>>>>>>>> boxes, icons are not semantic.. Those are design that shows content better.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Are we talking about core-defined shortcodes or not? If they're
>>>>>>>>>>>> defined in core, why do they need to be defined in the Theme?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  Original question:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>> My theme:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11437
>>>>>>>>>>>> Theme is adding custom tinymce button that adds css code for
>>>>>>>>>>>> design elements. There is no shortcode or something.. just css code.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Its allowed in themes right?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is a tinymce button added with theme. That button adds css
>>>>>>>>>>> code when you click it. ITs not adding shortcode and esspecially i am
>>>>>>>>>>> saying its not adding any shortcode. I NEVER said theme does not support
>>>>>>>>>>> any shortcode. Theme is supporting 3 shortcode thats wordpress default
>>>>>>>>>>> shortcodes: audio, video, gallery. Why did you link shortcodes file and
>>>>>>>>>>> said "aha there is shortcode"? What is purpose here?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Chip Bennett <
>>>>>>>>>>> chip at chipbennett.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Let's back up a bit: why would <span class="foo bar"></span> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> added to post content to begin with? What is the semantic meaning of such a
>>>>>>>>>>>> container?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Daniel Tara <
>>>>>>>>>>>> contact at onedesigns.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Speaking a bit more generally I believe there always be this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> conflict between content generation and content presentation. Content
>>>>>>>>>>>>> generation is plugin territory but if plugins also add their own styling
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what are the chances that styling fits a random theme. I say not styled
>>>>>>>>>>>>> content is better than ugly styled content. I think we should allow more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> middle ground here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 3, 2013, at 4:10 PM, Ünsal Korkmaz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for review but i mean tinymce does not adding
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shortcode, it adds css code.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/shortcodes.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those shortcodes are wordpress's default shortcodes. audio,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> gallery, video.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Chip Bennett <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> chip at chipbennett.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmm, actually, there *are* shortcodes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/shortcodes.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And this is definitely Plugin territory:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/remove-comments-absolute.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And a good deal of this is Plugin territory:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/fix.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And this is also probably Plugin territory (though a bit of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gray area):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/custom-sharing-buttons.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/custom-facebook-comments.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But, for the TinyMCE buttons: my initial reaction would be to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say that they also are probably Plugin territory. What do the buttons do?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do they add to the post content? Wrap selected content in <span
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> class="foo bar"></span> tags? Sure, that degrades more gracefully than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> un-parsed shortcodes, but it would still result in a bunch of unused markup
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scattered throughout the user's posts after switching Themes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Thus, I would say that the TinyMCE buttons are also Plugin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> territory*. I would recommend defining the *styles* for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CSS classes added via the TinyMCE buttons, but make the underlying TinyMCE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> button functionality itself a Plugin.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chip
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My theme:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11437
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theme is adding custom tinymce button that adds css code for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design elements. There is no shortcode or something.. just css code.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its allowed in themes right?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theme-reviewers mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theme-reviewers at lists.wordpress.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.wordpress.org/mailman/listinfo/theme-reviewers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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