[theme-reviewers] Tinymce button that only adds css codes.. still plugin territory?

Sun Mar 3 17:01:03 UTC 2013

I'm sorry, but if you're not going to make a good-faith effort to explain
what you're trying to accomplish, I can't help you.

Those TinyMCE buttons are Plugin territory.

On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:50 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com>wrote:

> I am not sure what is the thing you trying to reach. But can you please
> just read this:
> http://html5doctor.com/you-can-still-use-div/
> I dont want to copy paste all site here.
>
> The div element has no special meaning at all. It represents its children.
> It can be used with the class, lang, and title attributes to mark up
> semantics common to a group of consecutive elements.
> W3C Specification<http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-div-element>
>
> What is the purpose of that button?
>
> That can be anything. Remember websites purpose can be anything. *
> WordPress* is web software you can use to create a beautiful website or
> blog.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 6:43 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net> wrote:
>
>> > I want 2 button type link in my post content.
>>
>> Now we're getting somewhere, and what I suspected that we were driving
>> at. The semantic purpose of the container, then, is *to define a button*.
>>
>> What is the purpose of that button?
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> It's the Theme's responsibility to ensure readability and usability.
>>>
>>> I agree. Thats why i believe tinymce button that adds span/div wrappers
>>> with CSS classes's place is themes.. not plugins. Plugins cant predict
>>> which styles loaded but themes know which styles loaded.
>>>
>>> In that case, that styling of post content should be accounted for via
>>>> style.css.
>>>
>>> I agree. Its why we have css classes. Css classes are defined styling
>>> that you know what will do *if you use it. *In my theme, all styling is
>>> doing with classes.
>>>
>>> There's no reason for users to wrap post content with DIVs/SPANs just to
>>>> "improve readability and usability".
>>>
>>>  I dont agree. Themes, plugins or even wordpress cant predict user
>>> content's job fully. Lets say;
>>> I want 2 button type link in my post content. Those 2 must be different
>>> looking (color,size etc) because of usability. How can you predict which
>>> links in post content should those buttons? Of course you will use
>>>  span/div wrappers with CSS classes.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>> In that case, that styling of post content should be accounted for via
>>>> style.css. There's no reason for users to wrap post content with DIVs/SPANs
>>>> just to "improve readability and usability". It's the Theme's
>>>> responsibility to ensure readability and usability.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What is the *purpose* of the span/div wrappers with CSS classes?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Styling content with results of improving readability and usability of
>>>>> web site?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 5:21 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> > I believe tinymce button thats just adding span,div with classes
>>>>>> can be theme territory.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's finish that discussion here, before moving to the ticket.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is the *purpose* of the span/div wrappers with CSS classes?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <
>>>>>> unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Released 1.1.1 version:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://themes.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11449
>>>>>>> Removed plugin territory features except tinymce button. I believe
>>>>>>> tinymce button thats just adding span,div with classes can be theme
>>>>>>> territory. Thanks everyone for your time
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:45 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If there is no semantic value, then why would the user want to wrap
>>>>>>>> content in <span class="foo bar"></span>? There is obviously some *use* or
>>>>>>>> *purpose* for the user explicitly wrapping content in a container with
>>>>>>>> defined CSS selectors. The *nature* of that intended purpose helps to
>>>>>>>> clarify whether it is Theme territory or Plugin territory.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sometimes questions don't have a single, black-and-white answer,
>>>>>>>> but instead depend on context. (For example: post custom meta boxes are not
>>>>>>>> inherently Theme or Plugin territory; that determination depends on the
>>>>>>>> intended use of the defined custom post meta data handled by those meta
>>>>>>>> boxes.) So, by asking, "what is the semantic meaning of the code added by
>>>>>>>> the TinyMCE buttons?" I'm trying to drive to the intended purpose, to
>>>>>>>> ensure that we're all discussing the question in the correct context.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I mentioned shortcodes among a list of other things in the Theme
>>>>>>>> that are Plugin territory. Yes, it is a separate issue from the question of
>>>>>>>> TinyMCE buttons, but in your OP, you said, "there are no shortcodes, only
>>>>>>>> added TinyMCE buttons". I was merely pointing out that "there are no
>>>>>>>> shortcodes" is untrue, because the Theme does define shortcodes (along with
>>>>>>>> many other things that are Plugin territory).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <
>>>>>>>> unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Let's back up a bit: why would <span class="foo bar"></span> be
>>>>>>>>>> added to post content to begin with? What is the semantic meaning of such a
>>>>>>>>>> container?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Seriously?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Span_and_div
>>>>>>>>> In HTML <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML>, the *span* and *div*
>>>>>>>>> elements <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_element> are used for
>>>>>>>>> generic organizational or stylistic applications, typically when extant
>>>>>>>>> meaningful elements have exhausted their purpose.
>>>>>>>>> *span* and *div* is not semantic.. its for design. Colors, boxes,
>>>>>>>>> icons are not semantic.. Those are design that shows content better.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are we talking about core-defined shortcodes or not? If they're
>>>>>>>>>> defined in core, why do they need to be defined in the Theme?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Original question:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>> My theme:
>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11437
>>>>>>>>>> Theme is adding custom tinymce button that adds css code for
>>>>>>>>>> design elements. There is no shortcode or something.. just css code.
>>>>>>>>>> Its allowed in themes right?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is a tinymce button added with theme. That button adds css
>>>>>>>>> code when you click it. ITs not adding shortcode and esspecially i am
>>>>>>>>> saying its not adding any shortcode. I NEVER said theme does not support
>>>>>>>>> any shortcode. Theme is supporting 3 shortcode thats wordpress default
>>>>>>>>> shortcodes: audio, video, gallery. Why did you link shortcodes file and
>>>>>>>>> said "aha there is shortcode"? What is purpose here?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Let's back up a bit: why would <span class="foo bar"></span> be
>>>>>>>>>> added to post content to begin with? What is the semantic meaning of such a
>>>>>>>>>> container?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Daniel Tara <
>>>>>>>>>> contact at onedesigns.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Speaking a bit more generally I believe there always be this
>>>>>>>>>>> conflict between content generation and content presentation. Content
>>>>>>>>>>> generation is plugin territory but if plugins also add their own styling
>>>>>>>>>>> what are the chances that styling fits a random theme. I say not styled
>>>>>>>>>>> content is better than ugly styled content. I think we should allow more
>>>>>>>>>>> middle ground here.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 3, 2013, at 4:10 PM, Ünsal Korkmaz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for review but i mean tinymce does not adding
>>>>>>>>>>> shortcode, it adds css code.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/shortcodes.php
>>>>>>>>>>> Those shortcodes are wordpress's default shortcodes. audio,
>>>>>>>>>>> gallery, video.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Chip Bennett <
>>>>>>>>>>> chip at chipbennett.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmm, actually, there *are* shortcodes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/shortcodes.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And this is definitely Plugin territory:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/remove-comments-absolute.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And a good deal of this is Plugin territory:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/fix.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And this is also probably Plugin territory (though a bit of a
>>>>>>>>>>>> gray area):
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/custom-sharing-buttons.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/custom-facebook-comments.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But, for the TinyMCE buttons: my initial reaction would be to
>>>>>>>>>>>> say that they also are probably Plugin territory. What do the buttons do?
>>>>>>>>>>>> What do they add to the post content? Wrap selected content in <span
>>>>>>>>>>>> class="foo bar"></span> tags? Sure, that degrades more gracefully than
>>>>>>>>>>>> un-parsed shortcodes, but it would still result in a bunch of unused markup
>>>>>>>>>>>> scattered throughout the user's posts after switching Themes. *Thus,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I would say that the TinyMCE buttons are also Plugin territory*.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I would recommend defining the *styles* for the CSS classes added via the
>>>>>>>>>>>> TinyMCE buttons, but make the underlying TinyMCE button functionality
>>>>>>>>>>>> itself a Plugin.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Chip
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <
>>>>>>>>>>>> unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My theme:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11437
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theme is adding custom tinymce button that adds css code for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> design elements. There is no shortcode or something.. just css code.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its allowed in themes right?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> theme-reviewers at lists.wordpress.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.wordpress.org/mailman/listinfo/theme-reviewers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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