[theme-reviewers] Tinymce button that only adds css codes.. still plugin territory?

Sun Mar 3 17:39:41 UTC 2013

... and you are not likely to get any support from any of the other admins
either.

Edward Caissie
aka Cais.

On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net> wrote:

> > Why plugin have rights to add css style while theme dont have rights to
> use css styles?
> Can you give me link to the rule that forbids to use css class in themes?
>
> I'm sorry; I don't have the patience for straw-man arguments today.
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Ünsal Korkmaz <unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> If the user wants links in post content to be a button, the user will
>>> want that button to exist regardless of what Theme is active; thus, the
>>> user will add that button functionality using a Plugin.
>>
>>
>> How? Adding more css style? Why plugin have rights to add css style while
>> theme dont have rights to use css styles?
>> Can you give me link to the rule that forbids to use css class in themes?
>> If its not forbidden, that tinymce button is only making usage of those css
>> classes more user friendly. Thats all.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net>wrote:
>>
>>> We are not here to debate HTML theory. We are here to review Themes.
>>>
>>> One of the primary principles in the Theme Review Guidelines is the
>>> distinction between creation/definition of user content, and presentation
>>> of user content. When I asked about the semantic purpose of the code being
>>> added by your Theme's TinyMCE buttons, I was not delving into HTML markup
>>> theory; rather, I was driving at this user content creation-vs-presentation
>>> distinction. Adding a button to the post content is creation/definition,
>>> not presentation, of user content.
>>>
>>> If the user wants links in post content to be a button, the user will
>>> want that button to exist regardless of what Theme is active; thus, the
>>> user will add that button functionality using a Plugin.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Ünsal Korkmaz <unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is problem now?
>>>>
>>>>> What is the purpose of that button?
>>>>
>>>> That can be anything. Remember websites purpose can be anything. *
>>>> WordPress* is web software you can use to create a beautiful website
>>>> or blog.
>>>>
>>>> You asked me purpose of a button and i said it can be anything.. And
>>>> you didnt like my answer so you closed my theme directly:
>>>> http://themes.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11449#comment:4
>>>>
>>>> Wow.. I hope there is another persons that understands difference
>>>> between elements and semantics and you cant be semantic always.
>>>> I suggest you to read this article too:
>>>> http://learn.shayhowe.com/html-css/elements-semantics
>>>>
>>>>> Divisions, or divs, and spans are HTML elements that act as a
>>>>> container for different content. As a generic container they do not come
>>>>> with any overarching meaning or semantic value. Paragraphs are semantic in
>>>>> that when content is wrapped within a p element it is known as a paragraph.
>>>>> Divs and spans do not hold such meaning and are simply containers. Both
>>>>> divs and spans, however, are extremely valuable when building a website in
>>>>> that they give you the ability to apply targeted CSS styles.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You still trying to reach purpose of a button link. Oh and even your
>>>> website is not fully semantic. You are using div with "alignright" class to
>>>> make a picture in right of your content eh? Whats purpose of this
>>>> div.alignright? its not semantic
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm sorry, but if you're not going to make a good-faith effort to
>>>>> explain what you're trying to accomplish, I can't help you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those TinyMCE buttons are Plugin territory.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:50 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not sure what is the thing you trying to reach. But can you
>>>>>> please just read this:
>>>>>> http://html5doctor.com/you-can-still-use-div/
>>>>>> I dont want to copy paste all site here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The div element has no special meaning at all. It represents its
>>>>>> children. It can be used with the class, lang, and title attributes to mark
>>>>>> up semantics common to a group of consecutive elements.
>>>>>> W3C Specification<http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-div-element>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is the purpose of that button?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That can be anything. Remember websites purpose can be anything. *
>>>>>> WordPress* is web software you can use to create a beautiful website
>>>>>> or blog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 6:43 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > I want 2 button type link in my post content.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now we're getting somewhere, and what I suspected that we were
>>>>>>> driving at. The semantic purpose of the container, then, is *to define a
>>>>>>> button*.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is the purpose of that button?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <
>>>>>>> unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's the Theme's responsibility to ensure readability and usability.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree. Thats why i believe tinymce button that adds span/div
>>>>>>>> wrappers with CSS classes's place is themes.. not plugins. Plugins cant
>>>>>>>> predict which styles loaded but themes know which styles loaded.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In that case, that styling of post content should be accounted for
>>>>>>>>> via style.css.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree. Its why we have css classes. Css classes are defined
>>>>>>>> styling that you know what will do *if you use it. *In my theme,
>>>>>>>> all styling is doing with classes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's no reason for users to wrap post content with DIVs/SPANs
>>>>>>>>> just to "improve readability and usability".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  I dont agree. Themes, plugins or even wordpress cant predict user
>>>>>>>> content's job fully. Lets say;
>>>>>>>> I want 2 button type link in my post content. Those 2 must be
>>>>>>>> different looking (color,size etc) because of usability. How can you
>>>>>>>> predict which links in post content should those buttons? Of course you
>>>>>>>> will use  span/div wrappers with CSS classes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In that case, that styling of post content should be accounted for
>>>>>>>>> via style.css. There's no reason for users to wrap post content with
>>>>>>>>> DIVs/SPANs just to "improve readability and usability". It's the Theme's
>>>>>>>>> responsibility to ensure readability and usability.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <
>>>>>>>>> unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What is the *purpose* of the span/div wrappers with CSS classes?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Styling content with results of improving readability and
>>>>>>>>>> usability of web site?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 5:21 PM, Chip Bennett <
>>>>>>>>>> chip at chipbennett.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> > I believe tinymce button thats just adding span,div with
>>>>>>>>>>> classes can be theme territory.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Let's finish that discussion here, before moving to the ticket.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What is the *purpose* of the span/div wrappers with CSS classes?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <
>>>>>>>>>>> unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Released 1.1.1 version:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11449
>>>>>>>>>>>> Removed plugin territory features except tinymce button. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> believe tinymce button thats just adding span,div with classes can be theme
>>>>>>>>>>>> territory. Thanks everyone for your time
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:45 PM, Chip Bennett <
>>>>>>>>>>>> chip at chipbennett.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If there is no semantic value, then why would the user want to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrap content in <span class="foo bar"></span>? There is obviously some
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *use* or *purpose* for the user explicitly wrapping content in a container
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with defined CSS selectors. The *nature* of that intended purpose helps to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> clarify whether it is Theme territory or Plugin territory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes questions don't have a single, black-and-white
>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer, but instead depend on context. (For example: post custom meta boxes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are not inherently Theme or Plugin territory; that determination depends on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the intended use of the defined custom post meta data handled by those meta
>>>>>>>>>>>>> boxes.) So, by asking, "what is the semantic meaning of the code added by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the TinyMCE buttons?" I'm trying to drive to the intended purpose, to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ensure that we're all discussing the question in the correct context.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I mentioned shortcodes among a list of other things in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theme that are Plugin territory. Yes, it is a separate issue from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> question of TinyMCE buttons, but in your OP, you said, "there are no
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shortcodes, only added TinyMCE buttons". I was merely pointing out that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "there are no shortcodes" is untrue, because the Theme does define
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shortcodes (along with many other things that are Plugin territory).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let's back up a bit: why would <span class="foo bar"></span>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be added to post content to begin with? What is the semantic meaning of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such a container?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Seriously?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Span_and_div
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In HTML <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML>, the *span* and *
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> div* elements <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_element> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used for generic organizational or stylistic applications, typically when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extant meaningful elements have exhausted their purpose.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *span* and *div* is not semantic.. its for design. Colors,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boxes, icons are not semantic.. Those are design that shows content better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are we talking about core-defined shortcodes or not? If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're defined in core, why do they need to be defined in the Theme?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Original question:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My theme:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11437
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theme is adding custom tinymce button that adds css code for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design elements. There is no shortcode or something.. just css code.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its allowed in themes right?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a tinymce button added with theme. That button adds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> css code when you click it. ITs not adding shortcode and esspecially i am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saying its not adding any shortcode. I NEVER said theme does not support
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any shortcode. Theme is supporting 3 shortcode thats wordpress default
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shortcodes: audio, video, gallery. Why did you link shortcodes file and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> said "aha there is shortcode"? What is purpose here?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Chip Bennett <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chip at chipbennett.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let's back up a bit: why would <span class="foo bar"></span>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be added to post content to begin with? What is the semantic meaning of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such a container?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Daniel Tara <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contact at onedesigns.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Speaking a bit more generally I believe there always be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this conflict between content generation and content presentation. Content
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generation is plugin territory but if plugins also add their own styling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what are the chances that styling fits a random theme. I say not styled
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content is better than ugly styled content. I think we should allow more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> middle ground here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 3, 2013, at 4:10 PM, Ünsal Korkmaz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for review but i mean tinymce does not adding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shortcode, it adds css code.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/shortcodes.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those shortcodes are wordpress's default shortcodes. audio,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gallery, video.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Chip Bennett <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chip at chipbennett.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmm, actually, there *are* shortcodes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/shortcodes.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And this is definitely Plugin territory:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/remove-comments-absolute.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And a good deal of this is Plugin territory:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/fix.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And this is also probably Plugin territory (though a bit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of a gray area):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/custom-sharing-buttons.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/custom-facebook-comments.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But, for the TinyMCE buttons: my initial reaction would be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to say that they also are probably Plugin territory. What do the buttons
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do? What do they add to the post content? Wrap selected content in <span
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> class="foo bar"></span> tags? Sure, that degrades more gracefully than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> un-parsed shortcodes, but it would still result in a bunch of unused markup
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scattered throughout the user's posts after switching Themes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Thus, I would say that the TinyMCE buttons are also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Plugin territory*. I would recommend defining the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *styles* for the CSS classes added via the TinyMCE buttons, but make the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying TinyMCE button functionality itself a Plugin.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chip
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My theme:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11437
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theme is adding custom tinymce button that adds css code
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for design elements. There is no shortcode or something.. just css code.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its allowed in themes right?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theme-reviewers mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theme-reviewers at lists.wordpress.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.wordpress.org/mailman/listinfo/theme-reviewers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theme-reviewers mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theme-reviewers at lists.wordpress.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.wordpress.org/mailman/listinfo/theme-reviewers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
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