[theme-reviewers] tracking code in themes

Fri Mar 9 21:39:55 UTC 2012

Trent,

At this point, there is nothing left to debate. The policy is not going to
change. The data being collected ARE user data, even if some of those data
can be gleaned by other means. The official WPORG policy states that any
"phoning home" requires informed user consent, by virtue of an OPT-IN
mechanism, in which the functionality is user-configurable, and disabled by
default.

If you wish to argue official WPORG policy, please take it up with those
above the WPTRT pay grade.

Thanks,

Chip

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Trent Lapinski <trent at cyberchimps.com>wrote:

> Chip,
>
> What you do not seem to understand is that "informed consent" is not a
> reasonable or logical argument when collecting PUBLICLY available data.
>
> Public information is just that: public information. Informed consent is
> not require to acquire public information.
>
> Again, this is NOT user data, and does not harm the USER or violate the
> rights of the USER in any way. It is no different than someone visiting a
> website and having Google Analytics collect publicly available analytical
> data.
>
> WordPress.org itself, as well as WordPress.com are in direct violation of
> this free-software principle by tracking downloads, as is the WordPress API.
>
> Did I give WordPress informed consent to ping me to tell me there's a new
> update available? Nope.
>
> Did I give conformed consent when I downloaded WordPress itself from .org
> and WordPress tracked my download number? Nope.
>
> Did I give conformed consent when I simply visited WordPress.org and they
> found out what city I live in, what my screen resolution is, who my ISP is,
> and what kind of computer I'm using? Nope.
>
> Again, "informed consent" of public information is something WordPress.orgalready violates consistently with its own download counts, and analytics
> tools, and WordPress.com is also in violation of this as well:
> http://en.wordpress.com/stats/
>
> What I am arguing is WordPress is not in the wrong for doing any of this,
> and neither am I or PressTrends. This is how the internet works, and has
> always worked.
>
> Again, these are features that WordPress.org is considering implementing
> themselves, so please don't tell me this is some philosophical slippery
> slope, this is no different than tracking page views on a website. The only
> question here is why we have to wait for WordPress.org to do this when
> the technology exists for us to do this ourselves?
>
> The policy is illogical, irrational, and should be changed. It is through
> debates such as what we're having right now that we push things forward,
> and cut through stigma and irrational beliefs. I am not arguing with you
> because this is anything personal, I'm arguing because this "policy" is
> outdated, hypocritical, and does not make sense.
>
> --Trent Lapinski
> =============
> CEO of CyberChimps LLC
> trent at cyberchimps.com
> Mobile (714) 904-4280
> Twitter @trentlapinski
> http://CyberChimps.com
>
> On Mar 9, 2012, at 12:01 PM, Chip Bennett wrote:
>
> The very act of pinging a third party upon activation of a Theme - and
> doing so without the informed consent of the end user - is a violation of
> the free-software principle that users have the right to use software "*without
> being required to communicate about it with the developer or any other
> specific entity*".
>
> The rest of your arguments still miss the fundamental point that the issue
> here is not the usefulness/benefit of the service, but rather that the *informed
> consent of the end user* is paramount, and is required, both as a matter
> of adherence to free software philosophy and also as a matter of
> wordpress.org policy.
>
> Chip
>
> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Trent Lapinski <trent at cyberchimps.com>wrote:
>
>> For the record, PressTrends is not a "tracker" it doesn't track users
>> WordPress usage, or personal information.
>>
>> It simply tells you when someone activates a theme and reports back the
>> version number of the activation and what version of WordPress they are
>> using. That's the meat of it. It does a few other minor things, but the
>> users aren't be "tracked", and we aren't getting live data from the users
>> or any personal information.
>>
>> Furthermore, this information is publicly available to begin with. By
>> viewing the resources / source of any WordPress install you can see the
>> stylesheet which contains the version number of the theme. Which means this
>> information is publicly available on all WordPress websites running any
>> WordPress theme.
>>
>> Is it wrong to aggregate such information? I do not believe so,  and even
>> Otto has stated this is something Automattic has been looking to replicate
>> for WordPress.org themselves, so the "ethical" argument for PressTrends
>> is entirely invalid.
>>
>> If WordPress.org offered these same features you would all think its the
>> greatest thing since sliced bread, and no one would be raising privacy
>> concerns because there is no private information being made available.
>>
>> No one is having their privacy violated, PressTrends simply aggregates
>> useful publicly avaliable analytic data. That's it.
>>
>>
>> <Screen Shot 2012-03-09 at 11.23.32 AM.png>
>>
>>      --Trent Lapinski
>> =============
>> CEO of CyberChimps LLC
>> trent at cyberchimps.com
>> Mobile (714) 904-4280
>>  Twitter @trentlapinski
>> http://CyberChimps.com
>>
>> On Mar 8, 2012, at 6:35 PM, Emil Uzelac wrote:
>>
>> oh and as far as checking if the Theme is on warez or not is completely
>> useless, don't even bother, anyone that sells them commercially will tell
>> you not to waste your time, you report one bad link, 5 more will appear in
>> few hours, than you report that 5, 20 more will come up shortly after
>> that...this is the war we can't win, at least not for right now.
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:30 PM, Emil Uzelac <emil at themeid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Neither one was good to be honest with you. GA tracks more than just how
>>> the Theme is being used and that isn't right. For Adobe, Sure if you let
>>> them, I personally don't allow anything to go out, not even simple report
>>> back to them when something crashes. We all like more details, better
>>> statistics for greater improvement, that's why people invented surveys,
>>> polls etc... Most of the time this is covered in support forum, if they
>>> like your work, they will tell you a) if something goes wrong b) if there's
>>> something that they don't like and just another way of communicating with
>>> users or customers if we're talking about commercial Themes.
>>>
>>> Emil
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Daniel Fenn <danielx386 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> So how is one suppose to check of see if it was downloaded from a werz
>>>> site? Adobe does this all the time. Or was it GA that pissed then off?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 9:41 AM, Emil Uzelac <emil at themeid.com> wrote:
>>>> > Back in late 2009 I contracted for commercial Theme site where they
>>>> had two
>>>> > forms of tracking, one was via Google Analytics and second one hidden
>>>> to
>>>> > check if the Theme was purchased or downloaded from "" sites. In
>>>> matter of
>>>> > months they went from "all star" to "where are the customers" type of
>>>> thing.
>>>> > Long story short users don't like to be tracked one way or another and
>>>> > honestly I don't blame them at all. Permission or not "touching
>>>> things that
>>>> > should not be touched" are never good idea.
>>>> >
>>>> > If one wants to track and get the general ideas where the Themes go,
>>>> simply
>>>> > use your very own GA. There are many things you can do with Analytics
>>>> beyond
>>>> > how many visitors one have on monthly basis. Not 100% accurate, but
>>>> it does
>>>> > get close.
>>>> >
>>>> > This is from my marketing perspective. Privacy is issue everywhere
>>>> nowadays
>>>> > and once this leaks to the public, your sales will go down to toilet,
>>>> please
>>>> > believe me on this.
>>>> >
>>>> > Imagine this title on a popular WP News sites "Example Theme Site Now
>>>> Tracks
>>>> > User's Behavior". warez
>>>> >
>>>> > Cheers,
>>>> > Emil
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:48 PM, Bruce Wampler <weavertheme at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> As the author of a popular WordPress theme, I would like to add my
>>>> strong
>>>> >> agreement with the opt-in only policy for trackers such as
>>>> PressTrends.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I find Trent Lapinski's arguments for the harmlessness of opt-out
>>>> tracking
>>>> >> self-serving and disingenuous. Anyone with the least bit of
>>>> understanding of
>>>> >> the difference between opt-in and opt-out, and how that affects user
>>>> >> privacy, would never argue for allowing any kind of automatic or
>>>> opt-out
>>>> >> tracking of any kind in any repository based WordPress theme. It is
>>>> simply
>>>> >> the wrong thing to do.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Maybe PressTrends isn't any different in concept or privacy issues
>>>> than
>>>> >> Google's tracking code, or even WP stats, but both of those are
>>>> opt-in -
>>>> >> they don't happen unless the web admin actively adds them.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Personally, I believe any sort of tracking should require permission
>>>> from
>>>> >> the visitor to the site - but that is a much larger battle.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Bruce Wampler
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> theme-reviewers mailing list
>>>> >> theme-reviewers at lists.wordpress.org
>>>> >> http://lists.wordpress.org/mailman/listinfo/theme-reviewers
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
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>>>
>>>
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