[wp-trac] Re: [WordPress Trac] #10201: Switch roles to use single role, and no user-specific caps

WordPress Trac wp-trac at lists.automattic.com
Wed Jun 17 23:14:01 GMT 2009

#10201: Switch roles to use single role, and no user-specific caps
 Reporter:  Denis-de-Bernardy  |       Owner:  Denis-de-Bernardy
     Type:  enhancement        |      Status:  accepted         
 Priority:  normal             |   Milestone:  2.9              
Component:  Role/Capability    |     Version:  2.8              
 Severity:  normal             |    Keywords:                   
Changes (by Denis-de-Bernardy):

  * owner:  => Denis-de-Bernardy
  * status:  new => accepted
  * component:  General => Role/Capability


 posting the raw log, will summarize later:

 ddebernardy: you mean roles control in admin like wp-roles did?
 12:08 AM MarkJaquith
 ddebernardy: here is my idea on roles:
 12:08 AM jeffr0
 wow, alot of people would be cheering if role management received an
 overhaul and was more user friendly/ more granular
 12:08 AM Jane_
 will post on dev blog later this week or more likely early next week with
 prioritization poll. hopefully using andy peatling's nifty drag and drop
 feature ranking system from buddypress site.
 12:08 AM jeffr0
 heh I saw Andys roadmap stuff
 12:08 AM aaroncampbell
 jeffr0: I think you're the first one to mention "sitemap"
 12:08 AM rboren
 12:09 AM
 Used on talkpress on some other places.
 12:09 AM ddebernardy
 aaroncampbell - I was meaning this:
 12:09 AM
 12:09 AM
 and rboren's reference
 12:09 AM MarkJaquith
 My idea: Get rid of the concept of negated capabilities. No one uses them.
 Get rid of the idea of standalone capability  granting. Almost no one uses
 it. Get rid of the idea of multiple roles. No one uses it. Just have
 wp_user_role = 'author' in the meta table.
 12:10 AM Jane_
 see you guys
 12:10 AM Jane_ is now known as jane|dinner
 12:10 AM aaroncampbell
 ddebernardy: I thought that jeffr0 was talking about the permalink
 history.  Not sure I was correct, but is there a ticket for that one?
 12:11 AM ddebernardy
 oh, sorry, was meaning to reply to bi0xid
 12:11 AM bi0xid
 MarkJaquith: I think i don't understand. I use roles subscriber, author,
 editor and admin in almost all the blogs i admin. Do you want to eliminate
 12:11 AM ddebernardy
 yeah, permalink history would mean being able to drop all of the
 redirection plugins
 12:11 AM MarkJaquith
 bi0xid: no.
 12:11 AM
 bi0xid: by multiple roles, I mean a person who is both an admin and an
 12:12 AM bi0xid
 12:12 AM
 12:12 AM MarkJaquith
 You probably didn't know WP could do that. Because NO ONE uses it. :-)
 12:12 AM bi0xid
 MarkJaquith: agreed. If you want to have 2 profiles, then use 2 users.
 12:12 AM Fredelig
 12:12 AM aaroncampbell
 MarkJaquith: since there's not a limit to the number of roles, I think
 that the few people that use that could just create another role that is
 the equivalent to those two roles combined
 12:13 AM ddebernardy
 bi0xid - not so, if you've a membership plugin of sorts
 12:13 AM MarkJaquith
 aaroncampbell: exactly.
 12:13 AM bi0xid
 that's the poing
 12:13 AM
 12:13 AM rboren
 To get user with a certain cap, see which roles have that cap, see if user
 has one of those roles.
 12:14 AM MarkJaquith
 yep, rboren.
 12:14 AM ddebernardy
 and seeing which users have those roles amounts to querying all users
 12:14 AM
 it's a major problem atm
 12:14 AM MarkJaquith
 ddebernardy: indeed. users.php doesn't scale because of it.
 12:14 AM ddebernardy
 12:15 AM MarkJaquith
 The authors dropdown doesn't scale because of it.
 12:15 AM ddebernardy
 ok, so I take it that new roles tables will have more traction?
 12:15 AM nikolayb has left IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
 12:15 AM MarkJaquith
 ddebernardy: I don't see that a table is needed.
 12:15 AM ddebernardy
 it's needed for joins
 12:15 AM
 you don't want this stuff in a meta table
 12:15 AM MarkJaquith
 you can use usermeta as user-to-role
 12:16 AM ddebernardy
 meta joining an integrer on a text field is not the most efficient thing
 there is
 12:16 AM
 sql joining even
 12:17 AM MarkJaquith
 agreed. But I don't think the speed you lose in storing it in usermeta is
 worth adding a whole new table just for that.
 12:17 AM ddebernardy
 if we decide to drop the true|false thingy as you suggest, we've less
 tables but it's less flexbile
 12:17 AM
 MarkJaquith - it is, when you implement a membership plugin
 12:17 AM MarkJaquith
 It's just as flexible. It may just require more roles to do it.
 12:17 AM ddebernardy
 it makes evry difference in teh world, in fact
 12:18 AM
 so much so, that the better membership plugins create a separate table,
 12:18 AM rboren
 Well, a problem with usermeta is that you have to use db prefixes to get
 the role for a given blog.  Having a blog id would be nicer.
 12:18 AM ddebernardy
 and then user2membership and membership2post
 12:19 AM nikolayb has joined the channel.
 12:19 AM ddebernardy
 rboren - there is a ticket related to a CAPS define, related to that
 12:19 AM
 added a patch a few days ago
 12:19 AM
 but obvious not relevant if we get the roles tables fixed
 12:19 AM
 because we also need to be able to sort out a common desire for users to
 have the same role across blogs
 12:22 AM
 12:22 AM wp-trac-bot
 ddebernardy: http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/8663 normal, normal,
 2.9, hudatoriq->hudatoriq, new, Allow customizing capabilities prefix
 through wp-config.php
 12:22 AM Viper007Bond has left IRC ("http://www.viper007bond.com/ |
 http://www.finalgear.com/" )
 12:23 AM MarkJaquith
 Oh neat... that's been bothering me for a long time that you couldn't do
 that. I have a script that syncs the caps :-)
 12:23 AM ddebernardy
 anyway, is that a go for it for a role revamp in 2.9?
 12:24 AM DD32
 Little late i know, But Roles: Just simplify them, Dont bother with a new
 table unless its absolutely needed, Theres no need to move from an
 awkwardly complex system no-one uses, to another complex setup that no-one
 uses. - A single role per user + serialised caps for each role loaded once
 in memory, simple and do-able with the current layout
 12:24 AM ddebernardy
 or shall we stick to 8663?
 12:24 AM photomatt
 ddebernardy: to your earlier point of discussion, in many years of doing
 this I have seen zero correlation between a longer release cycle and more
 stable product
 12:24 AM
 in fact it seems to be the opposite
 12:24 AM MarkJaquith
 DD32: that would be my choice.
 12:25 AM ddebernardy
 DD32 - there's a half dozen tickets related to roles/caps
 12:25 AM bi0xid
 photomatt: people relax when having more time :P
 12:25 AM MarkJaquith
 Simple, no new tables. And we can totally handle upgrades without changing
 anyone's caps.
 12:25 AM photomatt
 so about 3 per year seems to be the best balance of plenty of room for
 testing and getting improvements into users hands as frequently as
 12:25 AM ddebernardy
 that are related to changing the way it's managed for all sorts of reasons
 12:25 AM
 photomatt - 3 per year is fine, not 4 :-)
 12:25 AM DD32
 ddebernardy: I dont care if there is, That doesnt make much of a
 difference, people have troubles with the current role system, Anyone who
 needs extreme grain control over it, can use a plugin, just like they have
 to do in the first place to change the roles caps anyway
 12:26 AM ddebernardy
 photomatt - are you in SF next month, so we can have a beer at some point?
 12:26 AM jeffr0
 what is this canonical plugins i keep hearing about. I don't understand
 what that means
 12:26 AM photomatt
 I'm actually gone all of july, until the very end
 12:27 AM ddebernardy
 that's fine, I'll be in Merced, probably for 2-3 months
 12:27 AM photomatt
 an obvious improvement for roles for 2.9 could be: there is no place in
 the interface that says what any role does
 12:27 AM ddebernardy
 just let me know when you're around (ddebernardy at yahoo.com
 12:27 AM photomatt
 even just a listing of capabilities in a human readable form would be a
 nice improvement for folks
 12:27 AM DD32
 jeffr0: Its for those who change their permalink strucutre so damn often.
 Ie. /2009/09/<postid>// - gets changed to /september/2009/<postname>/ and
 WP remembers the old format...
 12:27 AM MarkJaquith
 photomatt: I'd be up for simple role management if we got the whole system
 to a simple caps, bucket system.
 12:27 AM aaroncampbell
 jeffr0: The idea would be that a specific plugin would be the
 "recommended" solution for a particular issue, and rather than getting 50
 developers to create 50 different competing solutions, they could work
 together on one.
 12:27 AM photomatt
 some checkboxes for modifying non-admin capabilities would be icing on the
 12:27 AM DD32
 oh.. wrong thing :)
 12:27 AM jeffr0
 no you're speaking of canonical urls
 12:27 AM
 12:28 AM DD32
 Still too early here :P
 12:28 AM aaroncampbell
 Also, as mentioned, there's the possibility to get those added as part of
 the testing process (or even as unit tests)
 12:28 AM photomatt
 MarkJaquith: I think the user side should be done before any backend
 12:28 AM
 unless there's something inherit in the current structure that prevents us
 from moving forward
 12:28 AM jeffr0
 I know some plugin authors are already working behind the scenes together,
 collaborating together
 12:28 AM
 would this system help that?
 12:28 AM photomatt
 the consensus seems to be it's too flexible, not too little
 12:29 AM ddebernardy
 photomatt - there is. it prevents the likes of list authors with cap A or
 B to scale, for one thing
 12:29 AM MarkJaquith
 photomatt: yep. Too much flexibility, and it's actually constraining
 performance. Could do UI first, but it wouldn't support any of the soon-
 to-be-deprecated features.
 12:29 AM aaroncampbell
 jeffr0: yeah, but I think it's just an idea at this point.  it was
 mentioned in photomatt's state of the word in SF.
 12:29 AM ddebernardy
 and it prevents plugin authors from having a ready API to add memberships
 12:29 AM MarkJaquith
 Like multiple roles per person, or role + additional cap.
 12:31 AM ddebernardy
 12:31 AM aaroncampbell
 jeffr0: I talked about it a little in part 2 of my summary of the state of
 the word from SF: http://wpinformer.com/state-word-wordcamp-part-2/ ...I'm
 not much of a writer, but it's there
 12:31 AM photomatt
 MarkJaquith: I think having a UI would be a good constraint for us when we
 want to do a rearchitect in a future version
 12:32 AM
 because creating the UI will force us to figure out what people actually
 want from it
 12:32 AM
 what the most popular plugins are doing with it, etc
 12:32 AM
 without taking out the plumbing before we have a place to pee
 12:32 AM
 so to speak
 12:32 AM ddebernardy
 photomatt - no no, the good membership plugins are ignoring wp roles
 12:32 AM bi0xid
 Sorry guys. Off to bed. Must be awake in 5 hours to work ^_^. Will read u
 12:32 AM ddebernardy
 precisely because it's not query'able
 12:32 AM bi0xid is now known as bi0xid[a]
 12:33 AM aaroncampbell
 MarkJaquith: just to add my two cents, I use "role + additional caps"
 fairly regularly, but I'm not against having to create a new role to do
 12:33 AM photomatt
 ddebernardy: point me to the plugins, I'm happy to take a look at them
 12:33 AM MarkJaquith
 aaroncampbell: And the upgrade could create that new role for you.
 12:33 AM ddebernardy
 photomatt - they're all paid for stuff, sadly
 12:33 AM photomatt
 then I don't care about them
 12:33 AM ddebernardy
 but wp wishlist, for one, is one of them
 12:33 AM
 and my own (yet to be released, so not very relevant) is another
 12:34 AM photomatt
 if people are restricted to a single role, which is totally fair, then we
 could put an index back into wp_users using the old user_level field (or a
 new one) which would make querying easy-peasy
 12:34 AM ddebernardy
 I plan to place mine in the wp repo
 12:34 AM
 and I'd ideally want the roles table revamped by then
 12:34 AM aaroncampbell
 MarkJaquith: true.  Another FYI, I use Role Manager (http://www.im-web-
 gefunden.de/wordpress-plugins/role-manager/) and I think it's pretty
 12:34 AM ddebernardy
 else I'll just add a few more defines
 12:34 AM
 and db tables
 12:34 AM MarkJaquith
 photomatt: the only issue is that you can have different roles on
 different blogs, so you can't store it in the user table.
 12:35 AM jeffr0
 role manager is very popular
 12:36 AM ddebernardy
 as much as role manager is popular it still doesnt' make it possible to
 query users who can edit posts or pages, for instance
 12:36 AM DD32
 MarkJaquith: Thats the only case i see against it..  infact, integrating
 with other sites/setups is the only time you'd use a roll+cap or multiple
 roles ideally..
 12:36 AM photomatt
 as far as I can tell role-scoper is the most popular role plugin, and #657
 12:36 AM ddebernardy
 and that's like.. a must have, based on teh role/caps tickets
 12:36 AM MarkJaquith
 DD32: I'm not talking about multiple roles on one blog. Multiple roles on
 multiple blogs. One role per blog.
 12:36 AM photomatt
 MarkJaquith: good point, so in usermeta it should say
 12:37 AM
 12:37 AM MarkJaquith
 photomatt: but as role in plaintext only.
 12:37 AM photomatt
 12:37 AM ddebernardy
 ok, let me get this right
 12:37 AM photomatt
 I've always liked the approach of capabilities as a big array, which
 anyone could filter
 12:37 AM DD32
 MarkJaquith: Ah yeah slight mis-understanding there.. But yeah ok that
 makes sense
 12:37 AM photomatt
 rather than being stored in the DB as primary store after installation
 12:38 AM
 there's nothing in the code we can rely on any role existing, iirc
 12:38 AM MarkJaquith
 photomatt: you can still do that. Most of the sites I create, I hardcode
 roles using pre_option_* filters
 12:39 AM ddebernardy
 photomatt - see the performance/optimization tickets
 12:39 AM
 and a few template tickets
 12:39 AM photomatt
 yeah but when you do that you're making assumptions -- we do the same on
 12:39 AM MarkJaquith
 What assumptions?
 12:39 AM ddebernardy
 there are a few that relate to not being able to query users having a cap
 12:40 AM photomatt
 ddebernardy: I'm familiar with the problem. if you'd like me to look at a
 specific ticket, please link it
 12:40 AM MarkJaquith
 ddebernardy: it's roundly agreed that cap-to-user is needed. I've been
 honking that horn for over three years.
 12:40 AM Viper007Bond has joined the channel.
 12:40 AM ddebernardy
 12:40 AM wp-trac-bot
 ddebernardy: http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/2787 normal, normal,
 Future Release, markjaquith->jacobsantos, new, New Method of storing and
 calculating cap2user and user2cap
 12:40 AM ddebernardy
 12:40 AM wp-trac-bot
 ddebernardy: http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/2531 normal, normal,
 Future Release, markjaquith->jacobsantos, new, Functions for registering
 additional capabilities and getting a list of all capabilities
 12:40 AM clioweb has left IRC ()
 12:40 AM photomatt
 MarkJaquith: that nothing has modified in the DB. usually when I use a
 pre_option hook it feels like a hack
 12:40 AM ddebernardy
 12:40 AM wp-trac-bot
 ddebernardy: http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/5942 normal, normal,
 Future Release, tellyworth->, new, Add Owner role
 12:40 AM ddebernardy
 12:40 AM wp-trac-bot
 ddebernardy: http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/5255 normal, normal,
 Future Release, markjaquith->jacobsantos, new, Simplify role/capability
 for easier cap => user lookups
 12:40 AM ddebernardy
 12:41 AM wp-trac-bot
 ddebernardy: http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/5540 normal, normal,
 Future Release, tellyworth->jacobsantos, new, User roles overhaul
 12:41 AM ddebernardy
 12:41 AM photomatt
 ddebernardy: no need for a ticket flood, feel free to filter
 12:41 AM wp-trac-bot
 ddebernardy: http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/5541 normal, normal,
 Future Release, tellyworth->jacobsantos, new, Refactor and simplify
 12:41 AM MarkJaquith
 photomatt: I think of it as a hedge against silly users updating things
 they shouldn't be.
 12:41 AM photomatt
 otherwise it's annoying
 12:41 AM ddebernardy
 need more? :-)
 12:42 AM
 sorry ;-)
 12:42 AM photomatt
 was the role system from owen? I don't remember that
 12:42 AM ddebernardy
 I think so, yeah
 12:43 AM MarkJaquith
 yes. as with the original role manager plugin.
 12:43 AM photomatt
 this is a pretty good summary of how I still feel 3 years later:
 12:44 AM MarkJaquith
 He over-engineered it.
 12:44 AM ddebernardy
 MarkJaquith - agreed, that is totally needed in my experience of role
 management as well
 12:44 AM
 photomatt - agreed, but only one one front
 12:45 AM
 that caps can be managed as a serialized array
 12:45 AM
 roles, however, should not
 12:45 AM MarkJaquith
 photomatt: my only objection to that remains that people adding new roles
 have to store them somewhere.
 12:45 AM ddebernardy
 if you want to allow the viewing of this or that post by members of this
 or that product, then you need a table
 12:45 AM MarkJaquith
 So why not have a canonical storage location?
 12:46 AM photomatt
 the pivot point to me is whether we want them to be editable in core
 12:47 AM ddebernardy
 and even then, the current setup introduces performance issues related to
 fetch all users with this or that cap, in wp
 12:47 AM MarkJaquith
 Without any editing, I agree. Hardcode that sucker and use IDs.
 12:47 AM photomatt
 if not, then new plugins with new roles would just filter the array and
 add them, or a "role manager" plugin would override the array with
 something pulled from the DB, in however it wants to store it
 12:47 AM jeffr0
 editable as in checkboxes and drop down menus?
 12:48 AM ddebernardy
 jeffr0 - yes
 12:48 AM MarkJaquith
 photomatt: upgrade issues sort of box us in on that... unless we want to
 break people's custom roles.
 12:48 AM photomatt
 ddebernardy: since that's not core functionality, a plugin having a new
 table to optimize for its use case is totally fine
 12:49 AM
 that's why I suggested it in alex's patch on #5540
 12:49 AM wp-trac-bot
 photomatt: http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/5540 normal, normal,
 Future Release, tellyworth->jacobsantos, new, User roles overhaul
 12:49 AM ddebernardy
 photomatt - I'm fine with the idea, as long as it's clear-cut and clearly
 defined as wontfix for the remaining tickets in WP :-)
 12:50 AM
 your statement prompts me to close like... about 20 or so performance
 related tickets as wontfix
 12:50 AM photomatt
 the closest it gets to core is in MU, which has to jump through hoops to
 get the users of a blog
 12:50 AM
 ddebernardy: don't jump the gun, it's a discussion
 12:50 AM ddebernardy
 photomatt - that's interesting
 12:50 AM
 define users of a blog
 12:50 AM
 it's all users with edit cap, no?
 12:51 AM
 if so, you're making my point (for 4-5 extra tables) exactly
 12:51 AM JamesCollins has joined the channel.
 12:51 AM MarkJaquith
 it's all users with a role on that blog.
 12:51 AM photomatt
 any role
 12:52 AM ddebernardy
 so that's only a two tables -- roles, user2role
 12:52 AM
 role could be defined in the db, and that's no biggy
 12:52 AM
 until we need to fetch users with a specific cap
 12:52 AM
 if we need that, we also need role2cap and user2cap
 12:52 AM
 so two extra
 12:52 AM photomatt
 ddebernardy: it's being done now without additional tables, and has been
 for years
 12:52 AM
 it's just annoying
 12:53 AM DD32
 fetch specific: Thats simpler to just do an array filter, get the list of
 roles, query users based on roles
 12:53 AM ddebernardy
 yaya, I realize, but it coudl scale a lot better with the extra tables
 (and indexes)
 12:53 AM DD32
 scale past what? 10 roles and 50 caps?
 12:53 AM ddebernardy
 I'm not managing wp.com though, only you have the gory details ;-)
 12:53 AM photomatt
 the key in scaling is usually caching, not as much normalized data storage
 12:54 AM ddebernardy
 dd32: on a mu install such as wp.com we're talking hundreds of thousands
 of actual users
 12:55 AM
 photomatt - not so, even with memcached on you won't get past the
 bottleneck that goes, fetch all users, foreach users that has this cap add
 to array
 12:55 AM DD32
 ddebernardy: Yes, Which is why you'd optimize user fetching on roles, but
 actual cap -> user would be done as a PHP cap-> roles, then a SQL of roles
 -> users. Still scales very well for thousands of users if the user->role
 part is optimized
 12:55 AM MarkJaquith
 ddebernardy: that's not how you'd do it...
 12:55 AM
 figure out which roles have the cap. Easy, done in PHP, very fast.
 12:56 AM
 With roles in hand, do one query on usermeta.
 12:57 AM ddebernardy
 MarkJaquith - until you've users who have several roles
 12:58 AM MarkJaquith
 ddebernardy: I was proposing dropping multi-role.
 12:58 AM ddebernardy
 and even then, if you've a user who has caps on top of roles, your query
 is erroneous ;-)
 12:58 AM MarkJaquith
 And I was proposing dropping caps on tops of roles.
 12:58 AM
 wp_user_role => 'editor'
 12:58 AM ddebernardy
 I'm fine with both ideas and will be happy to contribute the patch, as
 long as it's a clear-cut decision
 12:59 AM rboren
 All customization done through roles.  One role per user.
 12:59 AM ddebernardy
 as long as we can get all of those performance tickets closed I'm happy
 12:59 AM rboren
 Has the benefit of simplicity.  Most priv systems are confusing as hell.
 12:59 AM aaroncampbell
 I need to go, but I agree with MarkJaquith ...drop the multiple roles per
 user, drop the added caps (make new roles instead), and keep it relatively
 simple (IMO)
 12:59 AM ddebernardy
 rboren - they sure are
 1:00 AM DD32
 and mutli-blog systems would still be clear-cut, as the role for the other
 blogs would be different meta rows..
 1:00 AM ddebernardy
 1:00 AM
 so are we all agreeing with dropping multi-roles and user caps?
 1:00 AM rboren
 Seems like.
 1:00 AM ddebernardy
 1:01 AM photomatt
 rboren: I like that
 1:01 AM ddebernardy
 1:01 AM
 let's do that
 1:01 AM rboren
 Makes code and queries much simpler.  And UI could be pretty simple too.
 1:01 AM DD32
 Before making a rush to close all those tickets though, Just think it over
 and open a new ticket based on that idea, see the reaction, and then close
 the non-needed stuff.....?
 1:01 AM photomatt
 MU is handled by the prefix
 1:01 AM
 DD32: makes sense
 1:01 AM rboren
 DD32: Mark and I have a ticket where we debated this very thing somewhere.
 1:01 AM photomatt
 rboren: what would the compatability implications be?
 1:02 AM rboren
 For stock WP, no problem. For those who use role manager, could be some
 1:02 AM MarkJaquith
 I really think it can be handled in upgrade.
 1:02 AM rboren
 Might need something to translate multiple roles + caps into new roles.
 1:02 AM MarkJaquith
 rboren: yep.
 1:03 AM
 If a role doesn't exist with those exact GRANT capabilities, we create
 1:03 AM photomatt
 do any plugins enable multiple roles?

 1:03 AM
 on a single blog
 1:03 AM ddebernardy
 1:03 AM MarkJaquith
 I've never seen it.
 1:03 AM wp-trac-bot
 ddebernardy: http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/10201 normal, normal,
 2.9, Denis-de-Bernardy->, new, Switch roles to use single role, and no
 user-specific caps
 1:03 AM rboren
 Haven't look at role manager forever. Is it even maintained any more?
 1:03 AM MarkJaquith
 rboren: by someone else, I believe.
 1:04 AM ddebernardy
 rboren - it is, but not very well
 1:04 AM
 photomatt - yes, membership plugins
 1:04 AM DD32
 Alright, 9am, better get to work. - Someone save a chanlog and post it up
 later please? (If theres anything else further said)
 1:04 AM ddebernardy
 we're absolutely guaranteed to break all of the poorly written ones if we
 implement this
 1:05 AM rboren
 Off to the airport. Dropping off the wife. Later all.
 1:05 AM ruslany has joined the channel.
 1:05 AM ddebernardy
 by poorly written ones, I'm meaning those that are sub-optimal from a db
 performance standpoint
 1:06 AM
 DD32: will add a big copy of the discussion in 10201
 1:06 AM jeffr0
 1:06 AM ddebernardy
 I actually like this idea
 1:07 AM
 it means membership plugins need to manage their own multi-role tables
 1:07 AM
 and that is good
 1:07 AM
 because roles and memberships are different animals
 1:07 AM MarkJaquith
 Yay. Three years and I finally got consensus on this! :-D
 1:07 AM ddebernardy

Ticket URL: <http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/10201#comment:1>
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