[theme-reviewers] GPL and limiting usage

Daniel danielx386 at gmail.com
Thu Oct 10 00:05:24 UTC 2013 

Ok I'm really lost here, are those themes going to be removed or not?
Regards,
Daniel Fenn






On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 11:03 AM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net> wrote:
> In an ideal world? Yes. The code has been purchased and distributed. It
> should work that same way, forever - not be crippled due to failure to
> maintain a recurring payment.
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Simon Prosser <pross at pross.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Well what it means is, if you activate the pro version then add a section
>> or something with pro features then decide to stop paying that section
>> continues to work just as you set it, you just cant add a new one.
>> In your ideal world should the user be able to keep pro options forever?
>> Im finding it hard to follow this thread and see what your solution is.
>>
>>
>> On 10 October 2013 00:53, Trent Lapinski <trent at cyberchimps.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Simon,
>>>
>>> "Sites are not crippled or destroyed, it isnt a 'kill switch'."
>>>
>>> You remove the users access to the settings and options which are
>>> required for them to maintain their website? Forcing the items they once
>>> paid for into a "read-only" mode which can't be modified by the user unless
>>> they pay again, correct?
>>>
>>> That's what I was implying by crippled, not that you were destroying
>>> websites. No one has ever argued that, what we're arguing is you limiting
>>> the usage of features that users already paid for.
>>>
>>> --Trent Lapinski
>>> =============
>>> CEO of CyberChimps Inc
>>>
>>> On Oct 9, 2013, at 4:41 PM, Simon Prosser <pross at pross.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yea i saw the email, mentioning 'features of the software are crippled'
>>> if you stop paying. Which isnt true, all settings for sections added
>>> continue to work as before. Sites are not crippled or destroyed, it isnt a
>>> 'kill switch'.
>>>
>>> If you bothered to look at the code you'd know that.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10 October 2013 00:35, Trent Lapinski <trent at cyberchimps.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Simon,
>>>>
>>>> I think it is also appropriate to mention that you are a PageLines
>>>> developer, and likely helped develop these usage limitations in the paid
>>>> version of your theme. So perhaps you can clearly define how your usage
>>>> limitations actually work?
>>>>
>>>> We're not arguing the GPL compatibility of the free version, we're
>>>> discussing the usage limitations present in the paid version.
>>>>
>>>> According to the WordPress.org guidelines:
>>>>
>>>> "Commercial versions of free Themes (i.e. “freemium” or “up-sell”
>>>> Themes) are required to be released under GPL-compatible licenses"
>>>>
>>>> It has always been WordPress.org Policy that themes or plugins or their
>>>> pro versions that are not 100% GPL compatible are not allowed on
>>>> WordPress.org.
>>>>
>>>> The GNU confirmed that:
>>>>
>>>> • The GPL applies to both the copyright holder, and users.
>>>> • DMS (Paid Version) violates the GPL according to the GNU due to the
>>>> usage limitations and restrictions in your pricing structure.
>>>> • DMS (Paid Version) thus violates WordPress.org Guidelines and Policy
>>>> yet DMS (Free Version) was still approved anyway despite these concerns
>>>> being raised multiple times by the community.
>>>>
>>>> There is currently a disagreement among the admins and their
>>>> interpretations of the GPL, which is why we sought clarification from the
>>>> GNU.
>>>>
>>>> The GNU stated that there is no way for them to police who is upholding
>>>> the rights of the GPL, but we do have this Theme Review Team, and the
>>>> purpose of this Theme Review Team is to enforce GPL, as well as
>>>> WordPress.org's policies.
>>>>
>>>> Regardless of anyones intepreration of the GPL, there is still a valid
>>>> WordPress.org policy concern as this is also against the free and open
>>>> source philosophies that WordPress.org was founded on:
>>>> http://wordpress.org/about/philosophy/
>>>>
>>>> In other words, the theme never should have been approved until an
>>>> actual resolutions was made on this subject.
>>>>
>>>> As it stands right now the Admins will be discussing this likely outside
>>>> the scope of this review mailing list and then make some kind of official
>>>> ruling. If they don't, then this will just keep coming up over and over
>>>> again until an official determination is made.
>>>>
>>>> All of this will go away if PageLines stops limiting the rights of
>>>> users, especially paying customers.
>>>>
>>>> --Trent Lapinski
>>>> =============
>>>> CEO of CyberChimps Inc
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 9, 2013, at 4:15 PM, Simon Prosser <pross at pross.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > The WordPress.org version of this theme is not restricted and does not
>>>> > expire.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On 10 October 2013 00:12, Justin Tadlock <justin at justintadlock.com>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> > This code that the users can not copy, distribute, or modify is given
>>>> > to users?  It has been distributed to them?  Does Pagelines' terms restrict
>>>> > the further copying, modifying, or distribution of this code?
>>>> >
>>>> > I don't care what happens with your Web site when you "use" (i.e.,
>>>> > run) the code (in terms of GPL).  I'm strictly asking about the actual code,
>>>> > which is what is licensed under the GPL.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On 10/9/2013 6:05 PM, Trent Lapinski wrote:
>>>> >>> Are users restricted from copying, distributing, or modifying the
>>>> >>> code?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Yes. PageLines uses a proprietary usage limiting API that prevents
>>>> >> users from copying, distributing and modifying their paid features which are
>>>> >> entirely software based (not a service).
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The usage limitations are only lifted if the user pays $24 a month
>>>> >> for unlimited usage rights, and if you stop paying all of your websites lose
>>>> >> functionality no matter how long or how much you've already paid into the
>>>> >> system.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> You can't actually buy the features, only "rent" them.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --Trent Lapinski
>>>> >> =============
>>>> >> CEO of CyberChimps Inc
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Oct 9, 2013, at 3:56 PM, Justin Tadlock <justin at justintadlock.com>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> I'd like to point, once again, to something I've already said on
>>>> >>> this matter.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> From the actual GPL license
>>>> >>> <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.html>:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> > "Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are
>>>> >>> > not covered by this License; they are outside its scope."
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Are users restricted from copying, distributing, or modifying the
>>>> >>> code?  **Any** activity beyond that has nothing to do with the GPL.  If we
>>>> >>> want to continue talking about the GPL, fine.  But, please answer this
>>>> >>> question first.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> If we want to discuss our policy on themes like this, that would be
>>>> >>> a much more fruitful discussion, one in which I think many of us would be
>>>> >>> more likely to agree on.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On 10/9/2013 5:49 PM, Trent Lapinski wrote:
>>>> >>>> If the Theme Review Team and .org Admins are confused by PageLines
>>>> >>>> marketing then what do you think the average customer thinks when they find
>>>> >>>> out they're stuck?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> People won't realize what PageLines "service" actually means until
>>>> >>>> PageLines flips the kill switch and they lose access to features they
>>>> >>>> already paid for and can no longer update the website they've built.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Your understanding of the GPL was correct according to the GNU.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I do not believe Otto and Nacin were incorrect in their logic or
>>>> >>>> reasoning, I think they simply didn't understand the full application and
>>>> >>>> deceptive nature of what PageLines is actually doing until now.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> We got clarification from the GNU on this issue so we could bring
>>>> >>>> about a resolution and properly educate everyone on what applies here in
>>>> >>>> this particular case and for future similar cases.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> As far as I'm aware we've never seen anyone try to do this before,
>>>> >>>> it's a very clever strategy to lock users in that looks like a support
>>>> >>>> service at first glance but its much more then that.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> It's a usage limitation that contradicts users rights as outlined
>>>> >>>> in the GPL, and is also clearly against WordPress.org policy.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> There is nothing wrong with software as a service if you are
>>>> >>>> actually providing a service. What PageLines is claiming is their software
>>>> >>>> is the service, which is simply not true. It's a marketing ploy that even a
>>>> >>>> lot of people here fell for which further illustrates the deceptive nature
>>>> >>>> of what they're trying to accomplish.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> --Trent Lapinski
>>>> >>>> =============
>>>> >>>> CEO of CyberChimps Inc
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On Oct 9, 2013, at 3:20 PM, Srikanth Koneru <tskk79 at gmail.com>
>>>> >>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> It is not against GPL, GPL gives you legal permission to copy,
>>>> >>>>> distribute and/or modify the software.
>>>> >>>>> You can do all that with their plugin. (atleast pagelines say you
>>>> >>>>> can edit out the restrictions)
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Its not already paid for, plugin is not just $8.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I always thought this wasn't allowed as per WPORG policy, but
>>>> >>>>> Otto/Nacin says it is so it is. Maybe their higher up's may overrule them
>>>> >>>>> and until they do its allowed under WPORG policy.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Its not morally/ethically wrong because they are putting the
>>>> >>>>> pricing plan upfront, users are buying knowing that they have to pay a
>>>> >>>>> monthly fee.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 3:41 AM, Trent Lapinski
>>>> >>>>> <trent at cyberchimps.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>> Selling people a WordPress theme is selling them a tool to build a
>>>> >>>>> website with.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> How would you feel if you went to Home Depot and were told you
>>>> >>>>> can't buy the hammer you need to build a bird house, you instead have to
>>>> >>>>> join Home Depots "subscription" to get access to the hammer you need to
>>>> >>>>> build a bird house, but you're only allowed to build 1 bird house with that
>>>> >>>>> hammer. If you want to build more then 1 bird house you have to pay
>>>> >>>>> signficnatly more money monthly to do so.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> If you finishing building your bird house and stop paying they
>>>> >>>>> will take your hammer away, and also lock you out of features from the
>>>> >>>>> birdhouse you already built and paid for.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> That's what PageLines is doing, and thats why this is against the
>>>> >>>>> GPL, WordPress.org Policy, and morally and ethically wrong.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> This has nothing to do with upgrade fees, support, or anything
>>>> >>>>> else. That has to do with limiting and crippling software that customers
>>>> >>>>> have already paid for and forcing them to continue to pay for something or
>>>> >>>>> else they lose access to the tools they need to maintain or update their
>>>> >>>>> website in the future.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> This is not a support service, but merely a clever way to lock
>>>> >>>>> users in forever.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> --Trent Lapinski
>>>> >>>>> =============
>>>> >>>>> CEO of CyberChimps Inc
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> On Oct 9, 2013, at 3:00 PM, Bryan Hadaway <bhadaway at gmail.com>
>>>> >>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Whatever the case, I feel we're actually getting much closer to
>>>> >>>>>> all being at least in the same book, maybe not quite the same page yet. But,
>>>> >>>>>> much closer to a reasonable and productive understanding/conclusion.
>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>>> theme-reviewers mailing list
>>>> >>>>>> theme-reviewers at lists.wordpress.org
>>>> >>>>>> http://lists.wordpress.org/mailman/listinfo/theme-reviewers
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
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>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
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>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
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>>>> >>
>>>> >>
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>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > My Blog: http://pross.org.uk/
>>>> > Plugins : http://pross.org.uk/plugins/
>>>> > Themes: http://wordpress.org/extend/themes/profile/pross
>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> My Blog: http://pross.org.uk/
>>> Plugins : http://pross.org.uk/plugins/
>>> Themes: http://wordpress.org/extend/themes/profile/pross
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> My Blog: http://pross.org.uk/
>> Plugins : http://pross.org.uk/plugins/
>> Themes: http://wordpress.org/extend/themes/profile/pross
>>
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>> http://lists.wordpress.org/mailman/listinfo/theme-reviewers
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>
>
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