[theme-reviewers] GPL and limiting usage

Thu Oct 10 00:04:56 UTC 2013

It isn't the Theme Review Teams responsibility to provide PageLines with an ethical business model.

If you are interested in my personal opinion on such matters I would be more then happy to charge you a monthly consulting fee, but only if you use my plan once. If you use any of my plans multiple times then I will charge you significantly more.

If you stop using my plans, then I will find a way to prevent you from maintaining anything I've consulted with you on.

Sound fair? 

Didn't think so.

--Trent Lapinski
=============
CEO of CyberChimps Inc

On Oct 9, 2013, at 5:01 PM, Simon Prosser <pross at pross.org.uk> wrote:

> Well what it means is, if you activate the pro version then add a section or something with pro features then decide to stop paying that section continues to work just as you set it, you just cant add a new one.
> In your ideal world should the user be able to keep pro options forever?
> Im finding it hard to follow this thread and see what your solution is.
> 
> 
> On 10 October 2013 00:53, Trent Lapinski <trent at cyberchimps.com> wrote:
> Simon,
> 
> "Sites are not crippled or destroyed, it isnt a 'kill switch'."
> 
> You remove the users access to the settings and options which are required for them to maintain their website? Forcing the items they once paid for into a "read-only" mode which can't be modified by the user unless they pay again, correct?
> 
> That's what I was implying by crippled, not that you were destroying websites. No one has ever argued that, what we're arguing is you limiting the usage of features that users already paid for.
> 
> --Trent Lapinski
> =============
> CEO of CyberChimps Inc
> 
> On Oct 9, 2013, at 4:41 PM, Simon Prosser <pross at pross.org.uk> wrote:
> 
>> Yea i saw the email, mentioning 'features of the software are crippled' if you stop paying. Which isnt true, all settings for sections added continue to work as before. Sites are not crippled or destroyed, it isnt a 'kill switch'.
>> 
>> If you bothered to look at the code you'd know that.
>> 
>> 
>> On 10 October 2013 00:35, Trent Lapinski <trent at cyberchimps.com> wrote:
>> Simon,
>> 
>> I think it is also appropriate to mention that you are a PageLines developer, and likely helped develop these usage limitations in the paid version of your theme. So perhaps you can clearly define how your usage limitations actually work?
>> 
>> We're not arguing the GPL compatibility of the free version, we're discussing the usage limitations present in the paid version.
>> 
>> According to the WordPress.org guidelines:
>> 
>> "Commercial versions of free Themes (i.e. “freemium” or “up-sell” Themes) are required to be released under GPL-compatible licenses"
>> 
>> It has always been WordPress.org Policy that themes or plugins or their pro versions that are not 100% GPL compatible are not allowed on WordPress.org.
>> 
>> The GNU confirmed that:
>> 
>> • The GPL applies to both the copyright holder, and users.
>> • DMS (Paid Version) violates the GPL according to the GNU due to the usage limitations and restrictions in your pricing structure.
>> • DMS (Paid Version) thus violates WordPress.org Guidelines and Policy yet DMS (Free Version) was still approved anyway despite these concerns being raised multiple times by the community.
>> 
>> There is currently a disagreement among the admins and their interpretations of the GPL, which is why we sought clarification from the GNU.
>> 
>> The GNU stated that there is no way for them to police who is upholding the rights of the GPL, but we do have this Theme Review Team, and the purpose of this Theme Review Team is to enforce GPL, as well as WordPress.org's policies.
>> 
>> Regardless of anyones intepreration of the GPL, there is still a valid WordPress.org policy concern as this is also against the free and open source philosophies that WordPress.org was founded on: http://wordpress.org/about/philosophy/
>> 
>> In other words, the theme never should have been approved until an actual resolutions was made on this subject.
>> 
>> As it stands right now the Admins will be discussing this likely outside the scope of this review mailing list and then make some kind of official ruling. If they don't, then this will just keep coming up over and over again until an official determination is made.
>> 
>> All of this will go away if PageLines stops limiting the rights of users, especially paying customers.
>> 
>> --Trent Lapinski
>> =============
>> CEO of CyberChimps Inc
>> 
>> On Oct 9, 2013, at 4:15 PM, Simon Prosser <pross at pross.org.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> > The WordPress.org version of this theme is not restricted and does not expire.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 10 October 2013 00:12, Justin Tadlock <justin at justintadlock.com> wrote:
>> > This code that the users can not copy, distribute, or modify is given to users?  It has been distributed to them?  Does Pagelines' terms restrict the further copying, modifying, or distribution of this code?
>> >
>> > I don't care what happens with your Web site when you "use" (i.e., run) the code (in terms of GPL).  I'm strictly asking about the actual code, which is what is licensed under the GPL.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 10/9/2013 6:05 PM, Trent Lapinski wrote:
>> >>> Are users restricted from copying, distributing, or modifying the code?
>> >>
>> >> Yes. PageLines uses a proprietary usage limiting API that prevents users from copying, distributing and modifying their paid features which are entirely software based (not a service).
>> >>
>> >> The usage limitations are only lifted if the user pays $24 a month for unlimited usage rights, and if you stop paying all of your websites lose functionality no matter how long or how much you've already paid into the system.
>> >>
>> >> You can't actually buy the features, only "rent" them.
>> >>
>> >> --Trent Lapinski
>> >> =============
>> >> CEO of CyberChimps Inc
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Oct 9, 2013, at 3:56 PM, Justin Tadlock <justin at justintadlock.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I'd like to point, once again, to something I've already said on this matter.
>> >>>
>> >>> From the actual GPL license <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.html>:
>> >>>
>> >>> > "Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not covered by this License; they are outside its scope."
>> >>>
>> >>> Are users restricted from copying, distributing, or modifying the code?  **Any** activity beyond that has nothing to do with the GPL.  If we want to continue talking about the GPL, fine.  But, please answer this question first.
>> >>>
>> >>> If we want to discuss our policy on themes like this, that would be a much more fruitful discussion, one in which I think many of us would be more likely to agree on.
>> >>>
>> >>> On 10/9/2013 5:49 PM, Trent Lapinski wrote:
>> >>>> If the Theme Review Team and .org Admins are confused by PageLines marketing then what do you think the average customer thinks when they find out they're stuck?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> People won't realize what PageLines "service" actually means until PageLines flips the kill switch and they lose access to features they already paid for and can no longer update the website they've built.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Your understanding of the GPL was correct according to the GNU.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I do not believe Otto and Nacin were incorrect in their logic or reasoning, I think they simply didn't understand the full application and deceptive nature of what PageLines is actually doing until now.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> We got clarification from the GNU on this issue so we could bring about a resolution and properly educate everyone on what applies here in this particular case and for future similar cases.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> As far as I'm aware we've never seen anyone try to do this before, it's a very clever strategy to lock users in that looks like a support service at first glance but its much more then that.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It's a usage limitation that contradicts users rights as outlined in the GPL, and is also clearly against WordPress.org policy.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> There is nothing wrong with software as a service if you are actually providing a service. What PageLines is claiming is their software is the service, which is simply not true. It's a marketing ploy that even a lot of people here fell for which further illustrates the deceptive nature of what they're trying to accomplish.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --Trent Lapinski
>> >>>> =============
>> >>>> CEO of CyberChimps Inc
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Oct 9, 2013, at 3:20 PM, Srikanth Koneru <tskk79 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> It is not against GPL, GPL gives you legal permission to copy, distribute and/or modify the software.
>> >>>>> You can do all that with their plugin. (atleast pagelines say you can edit out the restrictions)
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Its not already paid for, plugin is not just $8.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I always thought this wasn't allowed as per WPORG policy, but Otto/Nacin says it is so it is. Maybe their higher up's may overrule them and until they do its allowed under WPORG policy.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Its not morally/ethically wrong because they are putting the pricing plan upfront, users are buying knowing that they have to pay a monthly fee.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 3:41 AM, Trent Lapinski <trent at cyberchimps.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> Selling people a WordPress theme is selling them a tool to build a website with.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> How would you feel if you went to Home Depot and were told you can't buy the hammer you need to build a bird house, you instead have to join Home Depots "subscription" to get access to the hammer you need to build a bird house, but you're only allowed to build 1 bird house with that hammer. If you want to build more then 1 bird house you have to pay signficnatly more money monthly to do so.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> If you finishing building your bird house and stop paying they will take your hammer away, and also lock you out of features from the birdhouse you already built and paid for.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> That's what PageLines is doing, and thats why this is against the GPL, WordPress.org Policy, and morally and ethically wrong.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> This has nothing to do with upgrade fees, support, or anything else. That has to do with limiting and crippling software that customers have already paid for and forcing them to continue to pay for something or else they lose access to the tools they need to maintain or update their website in the future.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> This is not a support service, but merely a clever way to lock users in forever.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --Trent Lapinski
>> >>>>> =============
>> >>>>> CEO of CyberChimps Inc
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Oct 9, 2013, at 3:00 PM, Bryan Hadaway <bhadaway at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Whatever the case, I feel we're actually getting much closer to all being at least in the same book, maybe not quite the same page yet. But, much closer to a reasonable and productive understanding/conclusion.
>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>> >>>>>> theme-reviewers at lists.wordpress.org
>> >>>>>> http://lists.wordpress.org/mailman/listinfo/theme-reviewers
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
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>> >>>>>
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>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
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>> >>
>> >>
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>> >
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > My Blog: http://pross.org.uk/
>> > Plugins : http://pross.org.uk/plugins/
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>> 
>> -- 
>> My Blog: http://pross.org.uk/
>> Plugins : http://pross.org.uk/plugins/
>> Themes: http://wordpress.org/extend/themes/profile/pross
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> 
> 
> -- 
> My Blog: http://pross.org.uk/
> Plugins : http://pross.org.uk/plugins/
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