[theme-reviewers] Tinymce button that only adds css codes.. still plugin territory?

Sun Mar 3 16:43:47 UTC 2013

> I want 2 button type link in my post content.

Now we're getting somewhere, and what I suspected that we were driving at.
The semantic purpose of the container, then, is *to define a button*.

What is the purpose of that button?

On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com>wrote:

> It's the Theme's responsibility to ensure readability and usability.
>
> I agree. Thats why i believe tinymce button that adds span/div wrappers
> with CSS classes's place is themes.. not plugins. Plugins cant predict
> which styles loaded but themes know which styles loaded.
>
> In that case, that styling of post content should be accounted for via
>> style.css.
>
> I agree. Its why we have css classes. Css classes are defined styling that
> you know what will do *if you use it. *In my theme, all styling is doing
> with classes.
>
> There's no reason for users to wrap post content with DIVs/SPANs just to
>> "improve readability and usability".
>
>  I dont agree. Themes, plugins or even wordpress cant predict user
> content's job fully. Lets say;
> I want 2 button type link in my post content. Those 2 must be different
> looking (color,size etc) because of usability. How can you predict which
> links in post content should those buttons? Of course you will use
>  span/div wrappers with CSS classes.
>
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net> wrote:
>
>> In that case, that styling of post content should be accounted for via
>> style.css. There's no reason for users to wrap post content with DIVs/SPANs
>> just to "improve readability and usability". It's the Theme's
>> responsibility to ensure readability and usability.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> What is the *purpose* of the span/div wrappers with CSS classes?
>>>
>>>
>>> Styling content with results of improving readability and usability of
>>> web site?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 5:21 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>> > I believe tinymce button thats just adding span,div with classes can
>>>> be theme territory.
>>>>
>>>> Let's finish that discussion here, before moving to the ticket.
>>>>
>>>> What is the *purpose* of the span/div wrappers with CSS classes?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Released 1.1.1 version:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://themes.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11449
>>>>> Removed plugin territory features except tinymce button. I believe
>>>>> tinymce button thats just adding span,div with classes can be theme
>>>>> territory. Thanks everyone for your time
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:45 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> If there is no semantic value, then why would the user want to wrap
>>>>>> content in <span class="foo bar"></span>? There is obviously some *use* or
>>>>>> *purpose* for the user explicitly wrapping content in a container with
>>>>>> defined CSS selectors. The *nature* of that intended purpose helps to
>>>>>> clarify whether it is Theme territory or Plugin territory.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sometimes questions don't have a single, black-and-white answer, but
>>>>>> instead depend on context. (For example: post custom meta boxes are not
>>>>>> inherently Theme or Plugin territory; that determination depends on the
>>>>>> intended use of the defined custom post meta data handled by those meta
>>>>>> boxes.) So, by asking, "what is the semantic meaning of the code added by
>>>>>> the TinyMCE buttons?" I'm trying to drive to the intended purpose, to
>>>>>> ensure that we're all discussing the question in the correct context.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I mentioned shortcodes among a list of other things in the Theme that
>>>>>> are Plugin territory. Yes, it is a separate issue from the question of
>>>>>> TinyMCE buttons, but in your OP, you said, "there are no shortcodes, only
>>>>>> added TinyMCE buttons". I was merely pointing out that "there are no
>>>>>> shortcodes" is untrue, because the Theme does define shortcodes (along with
>>>>>> many other things that are Plugin territory).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's back up a bit: why would <span class="foo bar"></span> be
>>>>>>>> added to post content to begin with? What is the semantic meaning of such a
>>>>>>>> container?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seriously?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Span_and_div
>>>>>>> In HTML <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML>, the *span* and *div*
>>>>>>> elements <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_element> are used for
>>>>>>> generic organizational or stylistic applications, typically when extant
>>>>>>> meaningful elements have exhausted their purpose.
>>>>>>> *span* and *div* is not semantic.. its for design. Colors, boxes,
>>>>>>> icons are not semantic.. Those are design that shows content better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are we talking about core-defined shortcodes or not? If they're
>>>>>>>> defined in core, why do they need to be defined in the Theme?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Original question:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>> My theme:
>>>>>>>> http://themes.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11437
>>>>>>>> Theme is adding custom tinymce button that adds css code for design
>>>>>>>> elements. There is no shortcode or something.. just css code.
>>>>>>>> Its allowed in themes right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a tinymce button added with theme. That button adds css
>>>>>>> code when you click it. ITs not adding shortcode and esspecially i am
>>>>>>> saying its not adding any shortcode. I NEVER said theme does not support
>>>>>>> any shortcode. Theme is supporting 3 shortcode thats wordpress default
>>>>>>> shortcodes: audio, video, gallery. Why did you link shortcodes file and
>>>>>>> said "aha there is shortcode"? What is purpose here?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let's back up a bit: why would <span class="foo bar"></span> be
>>>>>>>> added to post content to begin with? What is the semantic meaning of such a
>>>>>>>> container?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Daniel Tara <contact at onedesigns.com
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Speaking a bit more generally I believe there always be this
>>>>>>>>> conflict between content generation and content presentation. Content
>>>>>>>>> generation is plugin territory but if plugins also add their own styling
>>>>>>>>> what are the chances that styling fits a random theme. I say not styled
>>>>>>>>> content is better than ugly styled content. I think we should allow more
>>>>>>>>> middle ground here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 3, 2013, at 4:10 PM, Ünsal Korkmaz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you for review but i mean tinymce does not adding shortcode,
>>>>>>>>> it adds css code.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/shortcodes.php
>>>>>>>>> Those shortcodes are wordpress's default shortcodes. audio,
>>>>>>>>> gallery, video.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Chip Bennett <chip at chipbennett.net
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hmm, actually, there *are* shortcodes:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/shortcodes.php
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And this is definitely Plugin territory:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/remove-comments-absolute.php
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And a good deal of this is Plugin territory:
>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/fix.php
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And this is also probably Plugin territory (though a bit of a
>>>>>>>>>> gray area):
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/custom-sharing-buttons.php
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.svn.wordpress.org/firmasite/1.1.0/functions/custom-facebook-comments.php
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But, for the TinyMCE buttons: my initial reaction would be to say
>>>>>>>>>> that they also are probably Plugin territory. What do the buttons do? What
>>>>>>>>>> do they add to the post content? Wrap selected content in <span class="foo
>>>>>>>>>> bar"></span> tags? Sure, that degrades more gracefully than un-parsed
>>>>>>>>>> shortcodes, but it would still result in a bunch of unused markup scattered
>>>>>>>>>> throughout the user's posts after switching Themes. *Thus, I
>>>>>>>>>> would say that the TinyMCE buttons are also Plugin territory*. I
>>>>>>>>>> would recommend defining the *styles* for the CSS classes added via the
>>>>>>>>>> TinyMCE buttons, but make the underlying TinyMCE button functionality
>>>>>>>>>> itself a Plugin.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Chip
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Ünsal Korkmaz <
>>>>>>>>>> unsalkorkmaz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>> My theme:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://themes.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11437
>>>>>>>>>>> Theme is adding custom tinymce button that adds css code for
>>>>>>>>>>> design elements. There is no shortcode or something.. just css code.
>>>>>>>>>>> Its allowed in themes right?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> theme-reviewers mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> theme-reviewers at lists.wordpress.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.wordpress.org/mailman/listinfo/theme-reviewers
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
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