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Trent,<br>
<br>
You're missing the point completely. Whether themes on the
repository are allowed to do this is a matter or WordPress.org's
policy. It's not about right or wrong. It doesn't matter if the
data is public or private. It's all irrelevant. You simply cannot
do it. Arguing on the theme reviewers mailing list isn't going to
change this.<br>
<br>
To quote Otto:<br>
<br>
"This sort of thing will not be allowed in the repository if the
code
is enabled-by-default. It must be explicitly enabled by the user,
and
there must be text nearby this option that explains what data is
sent
and where it is sent to."<br>
<br>
<br>
On 3/9/2012 3:18 PM, Trent Lapinski wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:16B17E87-E6F9-4BE3-AC6C-F1E557964442@cyberchimps.com"
type="cite">Chip,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What you do not seem to understand is that "informed consent"
is not a reasonable or logical argument when collecting PUBLICLY
available data.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Public information is just that: public information. Informed
consent is not require to acquire public information.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Again, this is NOT user data, and does not harm the USER or
violate the rights of the USER in any way. It is no different
than someone visiting a website and having Google Analytics
collect publicly available analytical data.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://WordPress.org">WordPress.org</a>
itself, as well as <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://WordPress.com">WordPress.com</a> are in direct
violation of this free-software principle by tracking downloads,
as is the WordPress API.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Did I give WordPress informed consent to ping me to tell me
there's a new update available? Nope.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Did I give conformed consent when I downloaded WordPress
itself from .org and WordPress tracked my download number? Nope.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Did I give conformed consent when I simply visited <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://WordPress.org">WordPress.org</a>
and they found out what city I live in, what my screen
resolution is, who my ISP is, and what kind of computer I'm
using? Nope.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Again, "informed consent" of public information is something
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://WordPress.org">WordPress.org</a>
already violates consistently with its own download counts, and
analytics tools, and <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://WordPress.com">WordPress.com</a> is also in
violation of this as well: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wordpress.com/stats/">http://en.wordpress.com/stats/</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What I am arguing is WordPress is not in the wrong for doing
any of this, and neither am I or PressTrends. This is how the
internet works, and has always worked.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Again, these are features that <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://WordPress.org">WordPress.org</a> is considering
implementing themselves, so please don't tell me this is some
philosophical slippery slope, this is no different than tracking
page views on a website. The only question here is why we have
to wait for <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://WordPress.org">WordPress.org</a> to do this when
the technology exists for us to do this ourselves?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The policy is illogical, irrational, and should be changed.
It is through debates such as what we're having right now that
we push things forward, and cut through stigma and irrational
beliefs. I am not arguing with you because this is anything
personal, I'm arguing because this "policy" is outdated,
hypocritical, and does not make sense.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div apple-content-edited="true">
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class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; color:
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<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
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style="border-collapse: separate;
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<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
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after-white-space; "><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse:
separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
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class="Apple-style-span"
style="font-size: 12px;
">
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break-word;
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space;
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after-white-space; "><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0,
0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica;
font-size: 12px;
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normal; font-weight:
normal;
letter-spacing:
normal; line-height:
normal; orphans: 2;
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normal; widows: 2;
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0px;
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none;
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auto;
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0px; ">
<div
style="word-wrap:
break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode:
space;
-webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;
"><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse:
separate;
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing:
0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing:
0px; color:
rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family:
Helvetica;
font-size: 12px;
font-style:
normal;
font-variant:
normal;
font-weight:
normal;
letter-spacing:
normal;
line-height:
normal;
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect:
none;
text-indent:
0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust:
auto;
text-transform:
none; orphans:
2; white-space:
normal; widows:
2; word-spacing:
0px; ">
<div
style="word-wrap:
break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode:
space;
-webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;
"><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse:
separate;
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing:
0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing:
0px; color:
rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family:
Helvetica;
font-size:
12px;
font-style:
normal;
font-variant:
normal;
font-weight:
normal;
letter-spacing:
normal;
line-height:
normal;
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect:
none;
text-indent:
0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust:
auto;
text-transform:
none; orphans:
2;
white-space:
normal;
widows: 2;
word-spacing:
0px; "><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse:
separate;
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing:
0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing:
0px; color:
rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family:
Helvetica;
font-size:
12px;
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normal;
font-variant:
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normal;
letter-spacing:
normal;
line-height:
normal;
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none;
text-indent:
0px;
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auto;
text-transform:
none; orphans:
2;
white-space:
normal;
widows: 2;
word-spacing:
0px; ">
<div>--Trent
Lapinski</div>
<div>=============</div>
<div>CEO of
CyberChimps
LLC</div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:trent@cyberchimps.com">trent@cyberchimps.com</a></div>
<div>Mobile
(714) 904-4280</div>
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<div
style="word-wrap:
break-word;
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space;
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after-white-space;
">Twitter
@trentlapinski</div>
<div
style="word-wrap:
break-word;
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space;
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after-white-space;
"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://CyberChimps.com">http://CyberChimps.com</a></div>
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</span></div>
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</span></span>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Mar 9, 2012, at 12:01 PM, Chip Bennett wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">The very act of pinging a third party
upon activation of a Theme - and doing so without the
informed consent of the end user - is a violation of the
free-software principle that users have the right to use
software "<i>without being required to communicate about it
with the developer or any other specific entity</i>".
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>The rest of your arguments still miss the fundamental
point that the issue here is not the usefulness/benefit of
the service, but rather that the <b>informed consent of
the end user</b> is paramount, and is required, both as
a matter of adherence to free software philosophy and also
as a matter of <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wordpress.org/">wordpress.org</a> policy.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Chip<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 1:34 PM,
Trent Lapinski <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:trent@cyberchimps.com">trent@cyberchimps.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">For the record,
PressTrends is not a "tracker" it doesn't track
users WordPress usage, or personal information.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It simply tells you when someone activates a
theme and reports back the version number of the
activation and what version of WordPress they are
using. That's the meat of it. It does a few other
minor things, but the users aren't be "tracked",
and we aren't getting live data from the users or
any personal information.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Furthermore, this information is publicly
available to begin with. By viewing the resources
/ source of any WordPress install you can see the
stylesheet which contains the version number of
the theme. Which means this information is
publicly available on all WordPress websites
running any WordPress theme.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is it wrong to aggregate such information? I do
not believe so, and even Otto has stated this is
something Automattic has been looking to replicate
for <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://WordPress.org/" target="_blank">WordPress.org</a>
themselves, so the "ethical" argument for
PressTrends is entirely invalid. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://WordPress.org/" target="_blank">WordPress.org</a>
offered these same features you would all think
its the greatest thing since sliced bread, and no
one would be raising privacy concerns because
there is no private information being made
available.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>No one is having their privacy violated,
PressTrends simply aggregates useful publicly
avaliable analytic data. That's it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span><Screen Shot 2012-03-09 at
11.23.32 AM.png></span></div>
<div>
<div class="im"><br>
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style="word-wrap:break-word">
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style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div><span
style="font-size:12px">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word"><span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px"><span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<div>
--Trent
Lapinski</div>
<div>=============</div>
<div>CEO of
CyberChimps
LLC</div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:trent@cyberchimps.com" target="_blank">trent@cyberchimps.com</a></div>
<div>Mobile <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%28714%29%20904-4280"
value="+17149044280"
target="_blank">(714) 904-4280</a></div>
</span></span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word"><span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
Twitter
@trentlapinski</div>
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://CyberChimps.com/" target="_blank">http://CyberChimps.com</a></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div>
<div>On Mar 8, 2012, at 6:35 PM, Emil
Uzelac wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><font
color="#333333"><font><font
face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">oh
and as far as checking if the
Theme is on warez or not is
completely useless, don't even
bother, anyone that sells them
commercially will tell you not
to waste your time, you report
one bad link, 5 more will appear
in few hours, than you report
that 5, 20 more will come up
shortly after that...this is the
war we can't win, at least not
for right now.<br>
</font></font></font><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar
8, 2012 at 8:30 PM, Emil Uzelac <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:emil@themeid.com"
target="_blank">emil@themeid.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><font color="#333333"
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">Neither one was
good to be honest with you. GA
tracks more than just how the
Theme is being used and that
isn't right. For Adobe, Sure
if you let them, I personally
don't allow anything to go
out, not even simple report
back to them when something
crashes. We all like more
details, better statistics for
greater improvement, that's
why people invented surveys,
polls etc... Most of the time
this is covered in support
forum, if they like your work,
they will tell you a) if
something goes wrong b) if
there's something that they
don't like and just another
way of communicating with
users or customers if we're
talking about commercial
Themes.</font></div>
<span><font color="#888888">
<div><font color="#333333"
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font color="#333333"
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">Emil</font></div>
</font></span>
<div>
<div><font color="#333333"
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
</font>
<div class="gmail_quote">On
Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:19 PM,
Daniel Fenn <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:danielx386@gmail.com"
target="_blank">danielx386@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
So how is one suppose to
check of see if it was
downloaded from a werz<br>
site? Adobe does this all
the time. Or was it GA
that pissed then off?<br>
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at
9:41 AM, Emil Uzelac
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:emil@themeid.com" target="_blank">emil@themeid.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> Back in late 2009
I contracted for
commercial Theme site
where they had two<br>
> forms of
tracking, one was via
Google Analytics and
second one hidden to<br>
> check if the
Theme was purchased or
downloaded from ""
sites. In matter of<br>
> months they went
from "all star" to
"where are the
customers" type of
thing.<br>
> Long story short
users don't like to be
tracked one way or
another and<br>
> honestly I don't
blame them at all.
Permission or not
"touching things that<br>
> should not be
touched" are never
good idea.<br>
><br>
> If one wants to
track and get the
general ideas where
the Themes go, simply<br>
> use your very own
GA. There are many
things you can do with
Analytics beyond<br>
> how many visitors
one have on monthly
basis. Not 100%
accurate, but it does<br>
> get close.<br>
><br>
> This is from my
marketing perspective.
Privacy is issue
everywhere nowadays<br>
> and once this
leaks to the public,
your sales will go
down to toilet, please<br>
> believe me on
this.<br>
><br>
> Imagine this
title on a popular WP
News sites "Example
Theme Site Now Tracks<br>
>
User's Behavior". warez<br>
><br>
> Cheers,<br>
> Emil<br>
><br>
> On Thu, Mar 8,
2012 at 3:48 PM, Bruce
Wampler <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:weavertheme@gmail.com" target="_blank">weavertheme@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> As the author
of a popular WordPress
theme, I would like to
add my strong<br>
>> agreement
with the opt-in only
policy for trackers
such as PressTrends.<br>
>><br>
>> I find Trent
Lapinski's arguments
for the harmlessness
of opt-out tracking<br>
>> self-serving
and disingenuous.
Anyone with the least
bit of understanding
of<br>
>> the
difference between
opt-in and opt-out,
and how that affects
user<br>
>> privacy,
would never argue for
allowing any kind of
automatic or opt-out<br>
>> tracking of
any kind in any
repository based
WordPress theme. It is
simply<br>
>> the wrong
thing to do.<br>
>><br>
>> Maybe
PressTrends isn't any
different in concept
or privacy issues than<br>
>> Google's
tracking code, or even
WP stats, but both of
those are opt-in -<br>
>> they don't
happen unless the web
admin actively adds
them.<br>
>><br>
>> Personally, I
believe any sort of
tracking should
require permission
from<br>
>> the visitor
to the site - but that
is a much larger
battle.<br>
>><br>
>> Bruce Wampler<br>
>><br>
>>
_______________________________________________<br>
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target="_blank">http://lists.wordpress.org/mailman/listinfo/theme-reviewers</a><br>
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><br>
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