<blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 6.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex; color: rgb(153, 153, 153);" class="gmail_quote"><i>Look, if you can't even agree on the simple fact that a theme is <br>
supposed to be a *theme*, then this discussion is getting into the <br>"pointless" territory pretty darned fast. <br></i></blockquote><br>Invalid and irrelevant. <br><br><br><br><blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 6.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex; color: rgb(153, 153, 153);" class="gmail_quote">
<i>The only person I see being "pretentious" here is you. Nothing but long <br>endless diatribes about how your code is right and everybody else who <br>disagrees with you is wrong. <br></i></blockquote><br>I've cited sources where necessary and relied on simple principles of <br>
logic to rebut invalid arguments. I believe I am right, but I do not <br>assume I am right, and I do not build my arguments on assumptions that I <br>am right. It is for these reasons that I am not pretentious. <br><br>My responses are only as long as is necessary to adequately explain my <br>
views. This requires considerably more effort than, say, expressing <br>one's opinions as facts and providing no explanation or reasoning. <br><br><br><br><blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 6.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex; color: rgb(153, 153, 153);" class="gmail_quote">
<i>I would point out that the people disagreeing with you are core <br>developers, admins of the theme review system, design experts, and <br>people like me who are just plain all-around-general-know-it-alls (thank <br>you very much), but then you'd probably just take that as some kind of <br>
appeal to authority or something. <br></i></blockquote><br>Your argument is a textbook example of invalid reasoning based on a <br>logical fallacy that's been understood and documented for hundreds of <br>years. It's not like I'm making this stuff up. And don't forget: I'm not <br>
saying "everyone is wrong"--I'm only saying <i>"Yes-huh...you can even go <br>ask Andrew Nacin!"</i> is not a valid argument. <br><br><br><br><blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 6.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex; color: rgb(153, 153, 153);" class="gmail_quote">
<i>At some point, you're simply going to have to sit down and say to <br>yourself "hey, why are all these people, who really do know things and <br>are widely considered to be experts, disagreeing with me?" <br>
</i></blockquote><br>I disagree. Solving problems requires facts and logic. The people <br>involved are irrelevant. <br><br><br><br><blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 6.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex; color: rgb(153, 153, 153);" class="gmail_quote">
<i>Maybe it's because you haven't explained your reasoning properly. That's <br>a possibility, certainly. I would have to say that nothing you've stated <br>makes sense to me, even though you continually state that you've <br>
explained something already. <br></i></blockquote><br>I don't want to waste everyone else's time recapping what's already been <br>said, but if you'd like, I can email you privately and try to get you up <br>
to speed. <br><br><br><br><blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 6.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex; color: rgb(153, 153, 153);" class="gmail_quote"><i>On the other hand, perhaps you're just going to have to accept the fact <br>
that, you know what? You might just be wrong. I know, shocker there, but <br>it is a possibility that you're going to have to face up to at some <br>point. <br></i></blockquote><br>(Reducing this issue to terms of "I'm right and you're wrong" feels <br>
selfish and primitive, but I'll humor you anyway.) <br><br>I don't mind being wrong. I actually appreciate being proven wrong, <br>which is why I constantly offer specific examples (easiest to disprove). <br>I went as far as to write example code--essentially handed everyone a <br>
loaded gun--and yet all I got in return was a bunch of limp excuses, <br>invalid reasoning, and best practices straight from the "in a perfect <br>World" cookbook.<br><br>At this point, I'm not even sure what you're arguing <br>
for or against. As far as I can tell, you're just butthurt that the new <br>guy spoke without paying his respects to your circle-jerk of <br>"collaborators" and you need to vent. But who knows, maybe you've got a <br>
secret stash of valid arguments that you've been withholding. If <br>so, please use them to "prove me wrong."<br><br>Here's a reminder of what's (supposedly) being argued. You can add to <br>the discussion by providing information that supports the first set of <br>
claims or refutes the second set of claims: <br><br><br><b>Otto et al:</b><br><ul><li>Themes must not use output buffering.</li><li>There is no reason for a theme to use output buffering.</li><li>Themes should not allow users to modify the behavior of plugins.</li>
</ul><br><b>Darren:</b><br><ul><li>Themes should be permitted to use output buffering.</li><li>There are some cases where output buffering is the only solution.</li><li>There are some cases where theme-implemented output buffering is the best solution.</li>
</ul><br><br><br><blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 6.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex; color: rgb(153, 153, 153);" class="gmail_quote"><i>However, whenever I see a thread where Me, Nacin, Chip, Dion, scribu, <br>
Justin Tadlock, Simon, and Ryan Hellyer are all actually *agreeing* <br>about something, then I'd have to say that that is pretty darned <br>unusual. So, it's a point that you just might have to consider. <br></i></blockquote>
<br>That's not a point. That's an irrelevant observation. Unsupported <br>opinions, conceived under rare conditions, are still unsupported <br>opinions. Do you really expect me to intentionally remove functionality <br>
from my theme, because 8 people (I don't personally know) share the same <br>unsupported opinion? <br><br><br><br><blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 6.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex; color: rgb(153, 153, 153);" class="gmail_quote">
<i>Your solutions don't even solve the problem, as I see it, they only<br>create new ones. Output buffering? I mean, come on. Do you really<br>think it's better to delay sending content to the page so you can run<br>
a bunch of string manipulation code to modify it, as opposed to simply<br>creating the content you want correctly in the first place?<br></i></blockquote><br>This has all been addressed already. Please stop polluting this thread <br>
with more of the same invalid arguments I've already addressed. You're <br>making it difficult for others to follow the real issues. <br><br><br><br><blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 6.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex; color: rgb(153, 153, 153);" class="gmail_quote">
<i>Look, running a website, and especially optimizing one, involves more<br>than just changing the source code of the page. If you're going to<br>serve things up to the public, there's more to it than *just*<br>WordPress. Being a webmaster is a full time job for some people. There<br>
is arcane knowledge that you have to learn. And sometimes, that<br>knowledge lies outside your sphere.<br></i></blockquote><br>Cool story, bro.<br><br><br><br><blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 6.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex; color: rgb(153, 153, 153);" class="gmail_quote">
<i>If you don't know to set caching headers properly, then you should<br>learn it instead of trying to do optimization in other places that<br>won't even help you nearly as much.<br></i></blockquote><br>Cool.<br><br>
<br><br><blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 6.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex; color: rgb(153, 153, 153);" class="gmail_quote"><i>This is kinda like all those CSS-compression things I continually see<br>
people trying to do. If you haven't even gotten the browsers looking<br>at your website to cache the data properly, then compressing your CSS<br>doesn't make a lick of difference if they're still downloading it<br>
every single time. You're optimizing the wrong things. Focus on the<br>basics first. You only have to resort to the silly ideas like CSS<br>compression once you've exhausted the traditional, and<br>tried-tested-true, options.<br>
</i></blockquote><br>For a site like <a href="http://ottopress.com">ottopress.com</a>, which takes <a href="http://www.webpagetest.org/result/110703_H0_f437e481696e55bb6b01c73d3a558037/">more than 10 seconds to load</a>, <br>
the benefits of minifying CSS may be difficult to see. For a site like <br><a href="http://seomofo.com">seomofo.com</a>, which <a href="http://www.webpagetest.org/result/110703_YD_a5d3672cb3873083dd8dc0fa83ffda79/">loads in under 2 seconds</a>, the benefit would <br>
be relatively more significant. Some webmasters just have higher standards<br>than others, and as a theme developer, I try to accommodate the needs of <br>both types.<br><br><br>